Which upgrade is best?

powenb

I have just purchased a Scott CR1 frameset and had it built up with the Bontrager stuff and 105 from my previous bike.

Very nice frame!!
I use it for general riding, by that I mean, I don't race on it, and will do a Sportive or two next year.

I am expecting some money in November and would like to know which upgrade to do first.
As i said it has full 105 (compact chainset) and it also has Bontrager Race Lite wheels.
These are nice wheels, fairly light and fast, and reliable.
Now, do I upgrade the drivetrain to Dura Ace (even if it's just shifters, chainset and rear mech) or do I go for some lighter wheels (DT Swiss 1450/Custom)?

Many thanks

Owen

rdaviesb

Get some new wheels. Pound for pound, the best value upgrade. I'd go for handbuilts from someone like Harry Rowland or Paul Hewitt. Classy bling, without the screaming rim stickers.

SteveR_100Milers

rdaviesb wrote:

Get some new wheels. Pound for pound, the best value upgrade. I'd go for handbuilts from someone like Harry Rowland or Paul Hewitt. Classy bling, without the screaming rim stickers.

what rims and hubs constitutes classy bling?

John C.

how about ultegra hubs with open pro rims,
May not be the best but pound for pound it'll take some beating. Try spa cycles they have some cracking deals
http://www.spacycles.co.uk/products.php ... 2b17s141p0

rdaviesb

I'd go for Royce hubs and Open Pro Ceramic Rims. No idea about spokes.

wildmoustache

how much £ do you have to spend on it. the best single upgrade for your riding is par of aero wheels. if you want to save weight, you might also look at upgrading stem, seatpost etc., where the gram per £ ratio is relatively high.

and make sure the tyres are nice ones.

maddog 2

yep, I'd agree on the wheels

Decent hubs are: (in no implied order of goodness)

- Tune
- Royce
- DT
- King
- Dura Ace

Rims: look at standard Open Pros, ceramic OP, DT 1.1 to begin with

Spokes: I prefer DT to Sapim. Double butted or Revolution, depending on how heavy/strong you want them. Pro-lock nipples. CX-rays are good but more cash.

Talk to Paul Hewitt. He'll advise you.

And don't forget good tubes and tyres. eg. Mich latex and ProRace

powenb

I have already upgraded all the stem/bar/seatpost to save weight and reduce vibration.

I am thinking of DT Swiss 240S hubs, Aerolit or Revolution spokes and DT Swiss RR 1.1 rims. These work out to be about 1430g fully built up.
Alternatively the DT Swiss RR 1450 Mon Chasserale wheelset looks great and is good value/weight. Also you don't need to contact the manufacturer if something breaks.
Any cycle shop can fix it.

Another wheel I have thought about is the new Dura-Ace carbon alloy clincher. 1380g and £575, sounds a cracking deal to me.

wildmoustache

i disagree with some of the suggestions above.. for your riding your best performance upgrade iis an aero wheel, whether handbuilt or not. Assuming you want clincher I'd look at:

- handbuilt aero wheels
- Zipp 404/303
- Cosmic Carbone
- new Aeolus clincher
- new DA deep section clincher

powenb

wildmoustache wrote:

i disagree with some of the suggestions above.. for your riding your best performance upgrade iis an aero wheel, whether handbuilt or not.

Do you mind if I ask why?
I have often thought about aero wheels.
Cheers

Pirahna

The problem with aero wheels is handling in windy conditions. The deeper the rim the more they are affected by side winds, add blade spokes and you have a pair of wheels which can turn a nice ride into an energy sapping and very unpleasant day out. Even a mid section wheel (I use Campag Eurus) can be bad, Personally I'd have a decent pair of normal wheels before buying an aero pair.

If you don't fancy handbuilt, the new Dura Ace 7801-SL wheels look good and a club mate who has a pair of pre-production ones reckons they ride as well as anything he's used before.

Do a bit of reading. Weight Weenies is a good place to get reports on how different wheels perform, and don't forget light weight tubes with decent rolling tyres.

simbil1

I'm not sure I'd recommend an aero wheel for general/sportive riding. They tend to be less forgiving, heavier and don't give much benefit until you are solo and hitting 25-30mph and above.
The added rigidity / less forgiving nature can be good for heavier / very powerful riders who would otherwise cause a lot of flex in a regular wheel.
As you will be using the wheel for general riding, I would steer clear of a super light rim and get something more robust - a good wheel builder will be able to advise on a good rim/spoke combination for your weight and riding style. Maybe boring, but better than having your wheels re-trued every month.

powenb

One thing I am thinking, the wheels I have feel fine.
They are 1680g but spin quickily and I don't notice any flex.

I am considering upgrading my 105 groupset (and putting it on my winter bike) and getting a full Camgap groupset.
Campag also do some light and good value wheels.

maddog 2

wildmoustache wrote:

for your riding your best performance upgrade iis an aero wheel

he's not racing though.

surely for general riding and sportives etc you want something reliable, easy to maintain (spokes, bearings etc.), and with good ride characteristics. Aero is a fine idea for TTing but on a damp Autumn club run in waterproofs it starts to look a tad overkill.

bahzob

How about a power meter of some sort or other? Apart from helping all aspects of riding (including sportives for which they are invaluable) it will also help you gauge if any future purchases have any real benefit or not.

John.T

A power meter is just an expensive toy unless you are training seriously and can interpret the data.
Transferring old parts on to a winter bike is a good idea but I would stick with Shimano now you have some. You will find that in future you have non compatability problems when you upgrade next time if you get Campag now. I am not knocking Campag which is very good.
I would go for a 10sp Ultegra setup. You just need STIs, cassette and chain. I have found that 10sp works much better than 9sp with a compact chainset. I run 50/34 with 12/27 and really miss the 16 cog on the 9sp winter bike. Ultegra works very well and you would hardly notice any difference with Dura-ace.
Any wheels with Open-pro rims will not be much lighter at the rim, where it matters, than your current ones. The comments re aero wheels are right, they are no advantage below about 25 mph and are poor in cross winds and usually give a harsher ride. To gain anything from wheels you need to be loosing at least 200/300 gm from the rims with any loss at the hubs as a bonus

dennisn

One thing that always suprises me is when people recommend that someone buy
a so called high performance wheelset and it's a set of clinchers. Why waste your money? If you want to ride clinchers, that's fine, but to spend bunches of money on
wheels and then put crummy rubber on them seems a bit odd to me. Tubies will always
be the more high performance wheel. Pros don't ride clinchers much, if at all, and with good reason. Clinchers may come off the rim when you have a flat, tubulars won't. While this usually isn't a big problem for clinchers at lower speeds, a tire coming off the rim during
a high speed downhill run can end in disaster. Control is everything and rubber on the
road is how you get it.

Dennis Noward
Toledo, Ohio

simbil1

But tubulars come off the rim when the rim gets hot on a long downhill... Happens quite regularly on the tour de france and that's with pro's riding and presumably braking sensibly and using the best glue.
Anyhow, the OP is doing general riding so tubs would be overkill and mean carrying a spare around or some slime in case of a puncture. I think that's a big reason why many people use clinchers.
The tubular clinchers you mentioned in an earlier post could be used for the OP's occasional sportive to drive some more performance on the same wheelset. Still, if its a long sportive and you puncture - I'd rather be on a regular (folding) clincher with a spare inner tube.

wildmoustache

maddog 2 wrote:

wildmoustache wrote:

for your riding your best performance upgrade iis an aero wheel

he's not racing though.

surely for general riding and sportives etc you want something reliable, easy to maintain (spokes, bearings etc.), and with good ride characteristics. Aero is a fine idea for TTing but on a damp Autumn club run in waterproofs it starts to look a tad overkill.

i respectfully disagree maddog ... and disagree much more with teh comment made later in this thread that aero wheels are only for 25mph+ riding (not true) .

aero wheels will give you a much bigger advantage than light wheels in events were 1) you're not riding that much in a tight pack 2) there are relatively few dramactic changes in pace. a sportif fits both. a tt even more so of course, but aero wheels are better suited to sportifs that say, to crit racing IMO.

an aero clincher wheel is the best wheel for sportifs IMO. the only exception might be in particularly windy conditions.

Ken Night

It's got to be aero rims really-they are so much more efficient.

For a non scientific test, try putting a bike on a turbo, trying with aero rims, get it to 15-20mph, and put your hand behind the saddle to feel the air displacement

Then try it using box section rims

While I can't calibrate this, the air disturbance is significantly higher with the latter

Why 15-20mph? You'll have to average around 17mph to get a gold on many UK and continental sportifs

simbil1

Do you mean aero spokes Ken? Surely a rim will not cause turbulance on a turbo as it has a uniform cross section presented to the direction of movement..?

Ken Night

mmmm.....I said my test wasn't scientific

The Open Pros I was using have standard 32 spoking, while the aero rims have 20 aero spokes

So I can't separate out the aero effects of rims and spokes

FWIW, I've used Zondas for audaxes on one bike, and Eurus for sportifs on another. I have no difficulty with stiffness/comfort

powenb

THe only thing I don't like about handbuilt wheels, is the look with the high spoke count.

maddog 2

can anyone actually quantify how much better aero wheels are though?

do they produce significantly more benefit than, say, wearing a nice tight top instead of a baggy one?

... or a helmet with ten holes and opposed to 50?

... or riding on the drops instead on the hoods?


I'm all for technical improvements - don't get me wrong fellas - but aero wheels get all the press (and sales revenue...) without any decent debate or analysis.

From the discussions, and based on what people shell out for, it seems wheels are the main focus for aero improvements.
...but surely everything on the bike and rider have drag. So why are we obsessed with wheels?

I suspect that your jersey/jacket and body position is much more important but nobody seems to advocating gay tight tops for club runs.........



...and what about aero tyres! Pointy ones that slice thought the air...

wildmoustache

maddog 2 wrote:

can anyone actually quantify how much better aero wheels are though?

do they produce significantly more benefit than, say, wearing a nice tight top instead of a baggy one?

... or a helmet with ten holes and opposed to 50?

... or riding on the drops instead on the hoods?


I'm all for technical improvements - don't get me wrong fellas - but aero wheels get all the press (and sales revenue...) without any decent debate or analysis.

From the discussions, and based on what people shell out for, it seems wheels are the main focus for aero improvements.
...but surely everything on the bike and rider have drag. So why are we obsessed with wheels?

I suspect that your jersey/jacket and body position is much more important but nobody seems to advocating gay tight tops for club runs.........



...and what about aero tyres! Pointy ones that slice thought the air...

Check out, for example, the tests that Tour magazine have done comparing a whole range of wheels in terms of their aero performance (i.e. watts saved to go at various given speeds). The benefits are significant. Not huge ... and in a TT much less than getting the body in the right positions, but significant nonetheless.

hopefully I'm not obsessed with aero wheels, though they are nice, but i already wear a tight lycra top (or a skinsuit if TTing), try and keep my body aero etc.

in anycase the OP was specifically asking about wheels and others have recommended non-aero wheels, which put simply are just not as fast ...

powenb

When people say "areo" wheels, do you mean deep section 50mm rims?

Or is something like THESE

simbil1

I spoke to Harry Rowlands about aero's when I got my last wheelset built and his comments were:

1. 30mph plus - i.e. serious 10mile TT teritory
2. Criteriums where you will be honking it a lot out of corners and the extra stiffness will be a benefit
3. Heavy riders where stiffness will benefit

None applied to me so I got a mid-section rim.

I don't know what Harry bases his opinions on, but he's been in the business long enough that I am inclined to believe him

redddraggon

simbil1 wrote:

3. Heavy riders where stiffness will benefit

How heavy is heavy?

simbil1

Heavier than me at 70kg. I guess 90kg+

terongi

If you have money to spend on cycling and you are not racing and you already have a perfectly good bike with perfectly good wheels, do this with your money:

(1) go to cyclefit in London (or other regional equivalent) and spend £150 on a full fitting session which includes analysing your posture. The changes they recommend (which may cost another £50-£100) will massively improve pedalling efficiency and comfort (which is far more important than slightly lighter wheels on a 100 mile hilly cyclosportif, because you slow down when parts of your body start hurting after hours in the saddle).

(2) if you have any money left, then pay a coach to come out for a ride with you and recommend a training program and technical tips.

Both or either of these will enormously help your enjoyment and sense of achievement on the bike. New wheels will look and feel nice for a few rides, then you won't notice them anymore until you realise that there are some even better wheels you want to buy.

Ste_S

If the upgrades are for general riding, and the current bike has nothing wrong with it, It's pointless arguing over tubs vs clinchers or aero vs box section wheels.

Buy the stuff that looks the nicest to bling your bike up

Edit - Otherwise what Terongi said. It's like a Max Power reading kid putting a spoiler and big exhaust on his Saxo without spending any money on the engine