Factory vs Handbuilt

heavymental
heavymental Posts: 2,091
edited October 2007 in Workshop
I've just bought the Scott CR1 frame as advertised on these pages and therefore I'm starting out on my first bike build so I'll no doubt be here with lots of questions on all the choices I have to sift through.

First up I'm thinking about wheels and it got me wondering what the difference is between factory and handbuilt wheels. Now I know handbuilt are more serviceable and that factory tend to be lighter but are they the only differences? I would have thought that I'd be better off getting handbuilt wheels as I'm not overly fussed about weight issues. I'm no heavyweight, I don't do big miles and I don't race but I'd like to know my wheels will survive and be fixable in my LBS. Then again factory wheels seem to have some good looking options which is of course a factor!

So....what should I be looking at?
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Comments

  • Titanium
    Titanium Posts: 2,056
    Handbuilts all the way. They are cheaper too. If you want something smart looking, get some DT240, Hope or Tune hubs. Lace them with CX Ray spokes on to Open Pro or DT1.1 rims, or look to American Classic or Niobium rims for more options.

    Maybe you want two pairs of wheels, one standard set for everyday use, for those wet dirty rides in winter which you can easily get for under £120 and something nice and light for those summer days.
  • heavymental
    heavymental Posts: 2,091
    Cheers Titanium. I'm going to get some reasonably blingy wheels as I'm keeping my current bike for the dirty days. I have Open Pro on Dura Ace with Sapin Laser spokes at the moment and they've been great and only cost me £150 2nd hand so I guess I could get some sexier hubs and go down a similar route.

    Interested to hear from the factory brigade though...
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    handbuilt unless you're a tart :D
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • allaction
    allaction Posts: 209
    Where do you reccomend for wheels? I've seen Dave Hinde ad in cycling weekly and prices don't seem bad.
  • DavidBelcher
    DavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    Heavymental wrote:
    Cheers Titanium. I'm going to get some reasonably blingy wheels as I'm keeping my current bike for the dirty days. I have Open Pro on Dura Ace with Sapin Laser spokes at the moment and they've been great and only cost me £150 2nd hand so I guess I could get some sexier hubs and go down a similar route.

    Interested to hear from the factory brigade though...

    I run factory-built wheels on my road bike (Vuelta Zerolites), largely because they were cheap (80 quid a pair or so) at the time. They've given good service to date, and though not the most sophisticated or lightest around, I'm pleased with them bcause of their reliability. Although of the grouped-spoke type, they do use fairly conventional construction and lend themselves to maintenance - not necessary to date, touch wood - with ordinary types of spoke and spoke key.
    Both types of wheel have their merits, though - for all-round weight saving and robustness I use top-end handbuilt wheels for cyclo-cross (Mavic Open pro with Hope front and Campag 8sp Ti Record rear).

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    edited October 2007
    Set you budget.
    Phone Paul Hewitt in Leyland Lancs.
    Tell him what you will be using the wheels for,e.g. racing,training ,commuting ,whatever. Tell him how much you want to spend
    Answer his questions honestly,if you are 15 stone don't tell him you are 12 stone.
    Place an order,wait for delivery.
    Sorted :)
  • OnTow
    OnTow Posts: 130
    I run Campag. Ventos on one bike, and 32H OPs with straight gauge 3x on Ultegra rear, and radial 32H front on Ultegra (straight gauge).

    The Ventos are good, the OPs my favourite.... Really solid direct feel, yet strangely pliant.
    Better acceleration too - Maybe because they're on a lighter frame - The Ventos are on the winter trainer - paradoxically.

    Ventos - Very slight wobble on back wheel - c.1mm, and worn rims after 1,000 muddy miles.
    OPs - Straight as an arrow but v.low mileage.

    I had mine built at Condor.
    Harry Rowland was very good, and gave some good advice / happy to chat to you.
    I also checked out Cycles Dauphin in Box Hill - The in-shop mechanic builds from a range of stock, and rides his own wheels in some pretty serious events.
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    But you won't get a single red spoke with handbuilt wheels - and that just looks so cool.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    I'm sure it could be arranged. :wink:
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    allaction wrote:
    Where do you reccomend for wheels? I've seen Dave Hinde ad in cycling weekly and prices don't seem bad.
    see this thread for background on Dave Hinde.
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    If you want some bling have a look at Poshbikes' range, which are built by Harry Rowland. You can get down to a very posh weight using Tune hubs. E.g. these ones, 1350 grams for £699. http://www.poshbikes.com/product.php?id=142 Tune hubs are a bit overpriced, but allegedly they last and they're flipping light and come in 6 colours. Theoretically you could save a lot on the Poshbikes price by dealing direct with Harry, and perhaps buying the hubs yourself from Germany. If you do ring Harry he'll probably talk you into Sapim spokes and Ambrosio Excellight rims. But if you stick with Tune hubs you'll still get a stupidly low weight.

    Or you could go on a wheelbuilding course and build them yourself, which is what I've done. OP ceramics, Sapim double butted and my '85 vintage Dura Ace hubs which are still in great nick. And the satisfaction of knowing you're on 'your' wheels. Plus the ability to mend them.
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Get something that can be trued by youself if need be. In fact it's really not all that hard
    to build them yourself. It takes a bit of patience at first but it's well worth it just for the
    satisfaction you'll get. And since you can true them yourself they are ready to hit the road
    a whole lot quicker than the ones you had to send back to the factory.
    Well worth the effort if you really love cycling.

    Dennis Noward
    Toledo, Ohio
  • System_1
    System_1 Posts: 513
    Personally I'd spend the money on handbuilts, but don't listen to those that say you can't true factory wheels yourself.

    Although some use weird spoking patterns and non standard spokes, the concept and practices behind truing the wheel remain the same as with any wheel. Even if they don't use regular nipples (which most do), they will almost certainly come with the correct tool to allow home truing. It's only when you start breaking spokes that will you need to think about sending them back to the factory.
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    System wrote:
    they will almost certainly come with the correct tool to allow home truing.

    Got any examples?
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • giant_man
    giant_man Posts: 6,878
    aracer wrote:
    But you won't get a single red spoke with handbuilt wheels - and that just looks so cool.

    Or a yellow one! :wink:
  • Lagavulin
    Lagavulin Posts: 1,688
    Eurostar wrote:
    System wrote:
    they will almost certainly come with the correct tool to allow home truing.

    Got any examples?
    My RR1850's came with a spoke key.

    The Ksyrium ES's I had a (very) quick look at stated they came complete with tools (sadly a £600+ price tag as well).

    Few others appear to state them as product features. I've ordered some cheap Aksiums which I intend to use through the winter and there was no mention of tools being supplied.
    2010 Cannondale CAAD 9
    2008 Wilier Izoard
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    The Kysrium ES wheels, with their >£500 price tags, come with a plastic spoke key. A few turns and it burrs faster than soft alloy. You end having to buy the steel one from Mavic. Not that the wheels need truing to often.

    Handbuilts are great. You get wheels built to suit you and the riding you do. Want aero wheels? Light? Stiff? You choose exactly what you want, even the spoke count comes into play.

    I challenge anyone to name a set of factory wheels selling for more than £250 which are better than handbuilts for the same price. Above this level, I reckon you could always build a cheaper, lighter, smoother and stiffer pair of wheels for less money.

    For example, Ksyrium ES wheels cost north of £500. For that money, you can get DT240S hubs, Sapim CX-Ray bladed spokes and some Open Pro rims. The spokes and rims are lighter than the Mavic factory wheels, the hubs much better. The spokes are way more aero. The rim is stiffer. And you'll get change from £500 too.
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    Do those weights really stack up? OPs aren't exactly light...450 grams each, because Mavic always lie about the weight.
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Yes, because they lie about the Ksyrium ES wheels too. They weigh 1540g roughly, depending on whether you have Shimano/Campag, despite the claimed weight of 1480g. Open Pros are meant to weigh 425g but come in around 430 - 435g.
  • heavymental
    heavymental Posts: 2,091
    Anyone got a link to a decent price calculation grid with lots of options? I'm quite keen to go for Hope Hubs, CXRay on Open Pro's as I've seen a pair of these and they look sweet but can't find a price for the built wheel anywhere.
  • allaction
    allaction Posts: 209
    Thanks Alfablue, that could have been an expensive mistake!
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    Has anybody worked with CX Rays? Are they tricky compared to regular Sapim double-butted?
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    They're not tricky, just more expensive.
  • allaction
    allaction Posts: 209
    Think I'll go with Paul Hewitt, about £185 for the chrome Open pros with Ultegra Hubs.
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    Heavymental wrote:
    Anyone got a link to a decent price calculation grid with lots of options? I'm quite keen to go for Hope Hubs, CXRay on Open Pro's as I've seen a pair of these and they look sweet but can't find a price for the built wheel anywhere.

    Give Paul Hewit a ring. You can get cheaper, but Paul is worth the extra IMO.

    He built my current best wheels (Tune hubs on ceramic OPs) and they've been superb. He also price-matched the Tune hubs to another shop that had them on offer, so he will do you a good deal if he can.

    Hope hubs are good too - I've had monos on my road wheels and also a set on some mtb wheels. Not quite as light as some of the other candidates but solid and fully rebuildable, and easy to service.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • pawlfreehub
    pawlfreehub Posts: 69
    Maddog, do Hope do a campag compatable 130mm hub again? Could only get Shimano 135mm when I last looked?
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    don't think so. I've not seen one.

    You can get 130mm Shimano.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • heavymental
    heavymental Posts: 2,091
    Anyone got an opinion on the Mavix CXP23 rims? They are a bit less aero than the CXP33 so I thought they might be a good compromise between Open Pros and CXP33. I like the aero look of the CXP33 but don't necessarily need the aero-ness. The Open Pro don't look quite as blingy because of their more squat profile...if you know what I mean. I know this is coming down to looks a bit but hey...I want them to look sweet!
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    I'd go for some Velocity Aeroheads instead if you're interested in something like that.
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    aracer wrote:
    I'd go for some Velocity Aeroheads instead if you're interested in something like that.

    I agree. I built a set of aeroheads and they run great and stay true. Plus you can get them
    in some blingy colors if you like. On top of it all the price was right, at least over here in
    the colonies.

    Dennis Noward

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