Bertie to Astana

iainf72

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Con ... 47380.html

Sounding very very likely.

Which is disappointing actually.

Squiggsy

I'd be surprised if Kloden stayed around in that case - no chance of being leader with Contador in the team.

andyp

Some people just don't recognise the state cycling is in do they?

Let's hope that the likes of ASO stand firm and don't invite Astana to any of their races.

ContrelaMontre

I hope Klöden leaves and signs for CSC!

....Or Slipstream!

iainf72

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I hope Klöden leaves and signs for CSC!

....Or Slipstream!

He was a T-Mobile rider. Who left to go to Astana.

I would suggest there is almost no chance of him going to those 2. Milram maybe....

vermooten

andyp wrote:

Some people just don't recognise the state cycling is in do they?

Let's hope that the likes of ASO stand firm and don't invite Astana to any of their races.

Why? What else does a team have to do to show that they fcked up in their first year and are serious about fixing things? E.g. sack the weak-ass existing manager and replace him with the world's top manager - from a team which has never had a negative test. It sounds like it's Disco in a new kit. More power to them.

Titanium

vermooten wrote:

replace him with the world's top manager - from a team which has never had a negative test. It sounds like it's Disco in a new kit. More power to them.

I really love this English irony and sarcasm, it's just so fine yet powerful

ContrelaMontre

iainf72 wrote:

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I hope Klöden leaves and signs for CSC!

....Or Slipstream!

He was a T-Mobile rider. Who left to go to Astana.

I would suggest there is almost no chance of him going to those 2. Milram maybe....

I know, I know - it's more likely he'll be busted by Anne Gripper than sign for a clean team! I'm actually surprised you of all people iain aren't suggesting that he might return to the magenta boys, what with their unambiguous clean stance

But, if you look at the facts he is another rider who is guilty purely by association. He's never been mentioned as a client of Fuentes or Ferrari (that I know of). All we can say is he's been less than wise in his choice of friends, who were clients of the aforementioned.

Therefore, I would like to see him sign for CSC and win the Tour de France next year - and denounce Vino from the podium for f-cucking up his chance this year!

Pipe dream, I know! If he stays at Astana I'll believe he's got something to hide (as I'm sure you do...)

top_bhoy

andyp wrote:

Some people just don't recognise the state cycling is in do they?

Surely only at a professional level though? If the magazine articles and fora such as this are to be believed, the demand for organised type sportifs and social cycling has never been higher.

I am pessimistic about the short and medium term in professional cycling. It will soon be a backwater for 2nd rate and medium sized Italian and Spanish sponsor companies and a couple of inferior French teams if it continues along this path. I suspect the likes of T-Mobile will be out at the end of their current contract unless things change, maybe even CSC as well. No serious multinational is really wanting their name associated with systematic doping scandals year in, year out.

andyp

vermooten wrote:

andyp wrote:

Some people just don't recognise the state cycling is in do they?

Let's hope that the likes of ASO stand firm and don't invite Astana to any of their races.

Why? What else does a team have to do to show that they fcked up in their first year and are serious about fixing things? E.g. sack the weak-ass existing manager and replace him with the world's top manager - from a team which has never had a negative test. It sounds like it's Disco in a new kit. More power to them.

You'll be telling me you believe in the tooth fairy still next. :roll:

Titanium

You've heard of dream teams, this is the nightmare team, two fingers stuck up to clean cycling.

But there is hope. With all the negative images, a load of them deserved, they need to put forward real mesures to clean up. Otherwise ASO won't let them race.

With the resources of the world's 8th biggest country (a one party state rich with oil) they can easily afford the mother of all dope testing control schemes, a scheme to intensive and extensive that nothing can go undetected.

andyp

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Surely only at a professional level though? If the magazine articles and fora such as this are to be believed, the demand for organised type sportifs and social cycling has never been higher.

I am pessimistic about the short and medium term in professional cycling. It will soon be a backwater for 2nd rate and medium sized Italian and Spanish sponsor companies and a couple of inferior French teams if it continues along this path. I suspect the likes of T-Mobile will be out at the end of their current contract unless things change, maybe even CSC as well. No serious multinational is really wanting their name associated with systematic doping scandals year in, year out.

Quite right. I did mean the professional part of the sport, not the sport in it's entirety. (Although the amount of doping that goes on in Gran Fondos is alarming).

I'm not sure I share your pessimism though - the second rate and medium sized sponsor companies have shown a lasting commitment to the sport whilst the multinationals enter and leave at will. I think one of the reasons the ProTour was doomed was that it tried to attract the multinationals and damned the traditional sponsors.

iainf72

Titanium wrote:

But there is hope. With all the negative images, a load of them deserved, they need to put forward real mesures to clean up. Otherwise ASO won't let them race.

If they did implement a CSC style system and still got the results, would they still be evil?

Results on a postcard.

Spoff

I see Leipheimer's probably going with him - just can't believe the UCI or ASO would want to invite them to races next season whoever's in charge.

I guess one of the problems is that there's no-one to replace them, Slipstream don't have the core strength to do three grand tours next year, Barloworld have got about a dozen riders on their roster and then you're into smaller Italian and Spanish teams . . .

timoid.

Titanium wrote:

With the resources of the world's 8th biggest country (a one party state rich with oil) they can easily afford the mother of all dope testing control schemes, a scheme to intensive and extensive that nothing can go undetected.

It's more like with resources like that they can put together the mother of all undectible dope programmes and ensure Kazakhstan is on the top of every podium.

LangerDan

Timoid. wrote:

Titanium wrote:

With the resources of the world's 8th biggest country (a one party state rich with oil) they can easily afford the mother of all dope testing control schemes, a scheme to intensive and extensive that nothing can go undetected.

It's more like with resources like that they can put together the mother of all undectible dope programmes and ensure Kazakhstan is on the top of every podium.

Certainly, the recent outpourings of the Kazakh cycling federation president that the recent positive tests for Vino and Kash are all part of a big conspiracy wouldn't lead me to expect anti-doping leadership from the highest levels.

iainf72

Spoff wrote:

I see Leipheimer's probably going with him - just can't believe the UCI or ASO would want to invite them to races next season whoever's in charge.

I guess one of the problems is that there's no-one to replace them, Slipstream don't have the core strength to do three grand tours next year, Barloworld have got about a dozen riders on their roster and then you're into smaller Italian and Spanish teams . . .

But those teams are likely to be the ones invited to the Giro and Vuelta.

Remember that the races that matter can now invite who they like.

Titanium

The point is that they have to be openly clean now. When you have a dirty reputation you gotta wash laundry in public, you have to be seen to be cleaning the dirt. So designing a secret regime to cheat the controls won't work. They need openly critical experts appointed to monitor what is going on and to test riders at will.

It's the only way. Just appointing Bruyneel and picking some new riders isn't going to change anything. Will all the backroom staff be changed? Will the riders who put in surprizing rides in the Dauphine week be in the team? Changing Biver is not changing the culture and ASO, the media and above the fans will know what's going on.

jimmythecuckoo

Astana cycling team is dead to me after this season. I have no respect for them, their riders and management and the same goes for any ex-Disco employee.

The post earlier in this thread about no Disco rider ever testing positive sickens me. What about the ex-riders of that team who have confessed? Just because they never tested + doesn't mean they took nothing, it just means they were more clever in their avoidance.

Do you still think 'more power to them'?

I don't. Contador may have dodged the Puerto bullet but for me he is a very likely candidate to be cheating.

iainf72

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

The post earlier in this thread about no Disco rider ever testing positive sickens me. What about the ex-riders of that team who have confessed? Just because they never tested + doesn't mean they took nothing, it just means they were more clever in their avoidance.

But has anyone confessed to an organised program?

Not saying there wasn't dodginess afoot,but the people who confessed did it on their own.

stevejmo7

The way that he looked so comfortable with Rasmusssen riding away from everyone makes me think that Astana with their track record is probably the right place for him to go to. Like other people, I hope they then don't any invites.

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

But has anyone confessed to an organised program?

Not saying there wasn't dodginess afoot,but the people who confessed did it on their own.

Not directly. But the IM transcript between Vaughters and Andreu referred to the team getting blood boosted after stage 8 of the 2005 Tour. For those of you who don't remember that was the day when Armstrong was left isolated on the final climb. The very next day the team was strong enough to ride on the front all day chasing Rasmussen. :roll:

timoid.

iainf72 wrote:

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

The post earlier in this thread about no Disco rider ever testing positive sickens me. What about the ex-riders of that team who have confessed? Just because they never tested + doesn't mean they took nothing, it just means they were more clever in their avoidance.

But has anyone confessed to an organised program?

Not saying there wasn't dodginess afoot,but the people who confessed did it on their own.

Vaughters messages to Andreau about having 25 injections a day at USPS and none at CA seem to indicate that more than the normal was going on on the Postal bus.

iainf72

andyp wrote:

Not directly. But the IM transcript between Vaughters and Andreu referred to the team getting blood boosted after stage 8 of the 2005 Tour.

Sure, but that's just hearsay. There hasn't been a grand confession or implication.

Vaughters also said those 25 injections were stuff they were allowed legally. USPS had a huge amount of drugs but the authorities knew about them .... well some of them (allegedly)

dave_1

Surely USPS/Disco would have been hell of a carefull about bringing banned substances into their team environment on the TDF...my guess is dead of night or rest days someone would have things delivered or it would be highly concealed as adminstration of doping products could take only a few minutes at most in some place but...it takes little time to transfuse??. Bruyneel and his mates from the 90s really should either own up or remove themselves from the sport as they have history in blood doping outfits like ONCE

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

[Sure, but that's just hearsay. There hasn't been a grand confession or implication.

Vaughters also said those 25 injections were stuff they were allowed legally. USPS had a huge amount of drugs but the authorities knew about them .... well some of them (allegedly)

Maybe but am I alone in smelling a rat when they miraculously recovered their form overnight?

There has been an awful lot of circumstantial evidence - David Walsh has written two books on it - and a lot of people have been leaned on by the US cycling establishment. It stinks and Bruyneel is tainted by his association. Cycling would be much better off without him and his dubious methods.

dave_1

andyp wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

[Sure, but that's just hearsay. There hasn't been a grand confession or implication.

Vaughters also said those 25 injections were stuff they were allowed legally. USPS had a huge amount of drugs but the authorities knew about them .... well some of them (allegedly)

Maybe but am I alone in smelling a rat when they miraculously recovered their form overnight?

There has been an awful lot of circumstantial evidence - David Walsh has written two books on it - and a lot of people have been leaned on by the US cycling establishment. It stinks and Bruyneel is tainted by his association. Cycling would be much better off without him and his dubious methods.

But where do we stop...how many of these guys working as Directors, or assitant directors...or soigneurs etc are not totally corrupt in their past as riders? I think management who were riders in the 1990s should leave the stage so to speak-they are not what cycling needs anymore as they all helped get the sport like it is now..

iainf72

andyp wrote:

[
There has been an awful lot of circumstantial evidence - David Walsh has written two books on it - and a lot of people have been leaned on by the US cycling establishment. It stinks and Bruyneel is tainted by his association. Cycling would be much better off without him and his dubious methods.

I know this isn't what you think, but sometimes you get the impression people think if Bruyneel was out then hey ho we're on the way. Meanwhile, there are Spanish, Italian, Dutch, more than likely Belgium and German teams who are doing the same things. Maybe not a well executed but the main difference appears to be they use the techniques to win,

It's not just Astana and Discovery - There is an odd fixation and it's almost like people have bought into the hype machine.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

andyp wrote:

[
There has been an awful lot of circumstantial evidence - David Walsh has written two books on it - and a lot of people have been leaned on by the US cycling establishment. It stinks and Bruyneel is tainted by his association. Cycling would be much better off without him and his dubious methods.

I know this isn't what you think, but sometimes you get the impression people think if Bruyneel was out then hey ho we're on the way. Meanwhile, there are Spanish, Italian, Dutch, more than likely Belgium and German teams who are doing the same things. Maybe not a well executed but the main difference appears to be they use the techniques to win,

It's not just Astana and Discovery - There is an odd fixation and it's almost like people have bought into the hype machine.

Iain, nothing less than a gutting of the 90s EPO era who run cycling now is what's needed...any pressure to get Bruyneel out of the sport is a good start-he's not fit to be involved given his stance on the issue of doping in sport..sign Basso when that name should never have been allowed into the 2007 peleton to then go and be a big story

Eurostar

I vote we all ignore men's cycling and show more interest in women's. And with Nicole Cook and Victoria Pendleton we already rule the world, apparently without any doping.

iainf72

Eurostar wrote:

I vote we all ignore men's cycling and show more interest in women's. And with Nicole Cook and Victoria Pendleton we already rule the world, apparently without any doping.

Someone wasn't allowed to start the worlds after a health check. That was a girl. And what aboot

http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/13360.0.html

Womans cycling also has it's challenges.