Cycle Routes / Cycle Lanes and blind councils

TheFoolio888

Will there EVER be any sort of consolodated effort to implement a decent commuter cycle network in this country? Oh and I don't mean 6 foot of green paint which leads into a brick wall or something.

I've just received an email from Birmingham council saying that there is are no plans to implemented a cycle lane on one of the busiest routes into town, as there is no budget.

Bearing in mind that this is the same route that has just had ever single corner curbstone lowered for about 5 miles to allow people with prams (I assume) to cross more easily....ignoring the fact that I have NEVER seen anyone need it in the past 12months.

When will they ever stop seeing £ signs and start seeing the benefits of getting people to cycle?

spen666

stand for election to said council on a pro cycling policy

see how far that gets you. it may indicate why council adopt the policies they do


[I'm not agreeing with actions of council]

TheFoolio888

spen666 wrote:

stand for election to said council on a pro cycling policy

see how far that gets you. it may indicate why council adopt the policies they do


[I'm not agreeing with actions of council]

I'm afraid that you are right...There are plently of people who have all sorts of bright ideas about all sorts of things, but once they get in office it all changes

"We can't have cycle lanes because that annoy car drivers...and everyone know there are more of them...so I would never get relected"

Thats why things like this have to come from above and the money has to be provided...but it will never happen. Even with the green issue it won't make a jot of difference...because everyone is obsessed with getting pretend green cars rather than actualy making a real difference.

gilbert_by_proxy

TheFoolio888 wrote:

Bearing in mind that this is the same route that has just had ever single corner curbstone lowered for about 5 miles to allow people with prams (I assume) to cross more easily....ignoring the fact that I have NEVER seen anyone need it in the past 12months.

This will most likely be for wheelchair access.

Do you have a dedicated cycle chappie at your local council?

TheFoolio888

gilbert_by_proxy wrote:

Do you have a dedicated cycle chappie at your local council?

Not that I can find out...it took about 3 weeks to get any sort of response at all.

My point is that unless they make some sort of statement and implement cycle friendly route then the majority of people will not think of picking up a bike because of its perceived dangers. It would seem that most people would rather sit in their cars looking miserable as I wizz past them getting fit than actually try cycling.

The sort of people who will cycle regardless of the route are already cycling (probably) so how do you get those who say "I would but it's too dangerous" to do so? I can't thik of another way.

spring91

TheFoolio888 wrote:

gilbert_by_proxy wrote:

Do you have a dedicated cycle chappie at your local council?

Not that I can find out...it took about 3 weeks to get any sort of response at all.

My point is that unless they make some sort of statement and implement cycle friendly route then the majority of people will not think of picking up a bike because of its perceived dangers. It would seem that most people would rather sit in their cars looking miserable as I wizz past them getting fit than actually try cycling.

The sort of people who will cycle regardless of the route are already cycling (probably) so how do you get those who say "I would but it's too dangerous" to do so? I can't thik of another way.

There are dedicate cycle chappies. See http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cycling or email cycling@birmingham.gov.uk.

I saw an advert on the back of a bus this morning attempting to encourage drivers to try cycling once a week. I didn't stay behind long enough to see whose advert it is.

Which route do you cycle?

TheFoolio888

spring91 wrote:

There are dedicate cycle chappies. See http://www.birmingham.gov.uk/cycling or email cycling@birmingham.gov.uk.

I saw an advert on the back of a bus this morning attempting to encourage drivers to try cycling once a week. I didn't stay behind long enough to see whose advert it is.

Which route do you cycle?

I think that was the address I tried...but I'll double check their response. Thanks.

I use the A456 Hagley Road between Quinton and 5-ways. To be honest it's not THAT bad...If I time it right the there is an empty bus lane on the way in as long as watch the those who think it is a BMW 3 Series lane :x

It's just that the road get narrows when you get close to town so it's not easy to filter down the middle of the lanes, past the static traffic. I can't image the casual cyclist ever wanting to suffer it. There is certainly nothing to encourage it...

The worst part it on the way out when the petrol heads see 10m of tarmac in front of them and have to break the land speed record up to the next set of lights :roll:

BentMikey

Too true on the petrol heads and the cycle of accelerate and brake. I seem to recall someone posting that some councils counted on cyclists to help be traffic calming measures to reduce this.

amt27

TheFoolio888 wrote:

Will there EVER be any sort of consolodated effort to implement a decent commuter cycle network in this country? Oh and I don't mean 6 foot of green paint which leads into a brick wall or something.

sadly there is not even a decent commuter network for the millions of motorists who pay billions in road tax, nor for the millions of people using over piced public transport or their own feet to walk to work, so expecting a government or council to implement it for cyclists is complete fantasy,

like any product or service, customers needs change, but a council is simply too beaurocratic and poorly managed to meet those changes, and even if they did meet those changes a new better service would be required by the customer immediately, so they just "patch up" an already failing service,

privatise the road and pedestrian networks with the companies in charge given a responsibility to provide a certain level of service for a decent cycle network, for me at the moment, there is no cycle network in this country, just paint with cycle signs on road and pedestrian routes, nothing purely for cyclists,

alfablue

amt27 wrote:

TheFoolio888 wrote:

privatise the road and pedestrian networks with the companies in charge given a responsibility to provide a certain level of service for a decent cycle network, for me at the moment, there is no cycle network in this country, just paint with cycle signs on road and pedestrian routes, nothing purely for cyclists,

sure, it might even be as good as the privatised rail service, eh? Or would it just be loot for shareholders whilst the public are fleeced???

amt27

unless traffic volume decreased they will have to, i don't understand why the public (consumers) put up with the road network on this island, typical british "keep quiet and don't complain" attitude,

public are fleeced - well cyclists dont pay road tax do they

on your point of shareholders, you don't get the best management and problem solvers unless they make money, and nobody invests without a chance of a return, if you want to keep employing the layers and layers of management in government insitutions, go for it,

alfablue

amt27 wrote:

unless traffic volume decreased they will have to, i don't understand why the public (consumers) put up with the road network on this island, typical british "keep quiet and don't complain" attitude,

There is no point in increasing traffic capacity, volume will just increase to fill it, creating more road journeys and more environmental damage. Congestion is actually necessary to draw a halt to the massive expansion of private and commercial road traffic.

public are fleeced - well cyclists dont pay road tax do they

so who will pay, will motorists rejoice in funding this wonder-network for cyclists? Will cycling uptake increase as road capacity increases for motorists?

on your point of shareholders, you don't get the best management and problem solvers unless they make money, and nobody invests without a chance of a return, if you want to keep employing the layers and layers of management in government insitutions, go for it,

There are layers of management topped by fat cats in private institutions, their success is measured and rewarded in performance of shares, not customer service. If this model worked so well, why do rail passengers face service and capacity cuts whilst shareholders get larger dividends. What privatised industries actually do an excellent service for their customers? I fear you're about 20 years out of date, this dogma has been rejected long ago, even the Tories admitted the rail privatisation was a privatisation too far, yet road privatisation makes even less sense.

TheFoolio888

We're doomed!

We are in a catch 22 situation. People won't get out of their cars until they see a viable alternative (in their eyes), a viable alternative will not be created because it costs money which can only be raised by cars or magicked out of thin air by taking it away from something else.

Well actually lets face it, most people just won't get out of their cars anyway will they?

I do fear that we are slowly spiralling down into to some 24hr a day grid lock...and when the roads are too full of cars for me to cycle I'll use the pavement or get a scrambler and ride over the top of them in their 4x4s Kick Start style! They can't say I didn't warn them :P

By the way I DO pay for the roads because I have a car too...so why can't I chose for a % of my money to go to cycle routes?

Big Red S

amt27 wrote:

TheFoolio888 wrote:

sadly there is not even a decent commuter network for the millions of motorists who pay billions in road tax, nor for the millions of people using over piced public transport or their own feet to walk to work, so expecting a government or council to implement it for cyclists is complete fantasy,

privatise the road and pedestrian networks with the companies in charge given a responsibility to provide a certain level of service for a decent cycle network, for me at the moment, there is no cycle network in this country, just paint with cycle signs on road and pedestrian routes, nothing purely for cyclists,

What's to say this privatised road network would be any better managed than the public transport ones you just complained about?

dirk_van_gently

Why is it countries like Holland, Begium, Germany (others too) have cycle lanes. Almost everywhere there is a road, there is an equivalent cycle lane or path. The cost of building cycle lanes when building new roads must be pennies compared to building the cycle lane after the fact, so why are we in this ridiculous situation?

Sustrans have made some minor headways with cycle paths, but they seem to have lost the plot recently, being co signatories on a letter from Roadpeace (interfering busy bodies didn't sound too good as a name) sent to the House of Commons Transport Committee, calling for Motorcycles to be downsized. Where the hell is the sense in that? Downsizing 4x4's and people carriers would make more sense.

a few generalisations that are pertinent here:

We all know Politics is another word for bollox.
Fat arsed lazy people will not get out of there cars.
Public transport is in many cases a joke.
Car manufacturers, Civil engineering contractors, petrol companies, would all lose business if there ever was a real alternative, and they all have powerful lobbyists at Government and local Government levels, to ensue they don't.

Of course one day the oil will run out.

TheFoolio888

Dirk Van Gently wrote:

a few generalisations that are pertinent here:

We all know Politics is another word for bollox.
Fat arsed lazy people will not get out of there cars.
Public transport is in many cases a joke.
Car manufacturers, Civil engineering contractors, petrol companies, would all lose business if there ever was a real alternative, and they all have powerful lobbyists at Government and local Government levels, to ensue they don't.

Of course one day the oil will run out.

Indeed...generisations always have an element of truth, and these more than most.

I listen to people at work saying "I can't believe you cycle...its so dangerous/tiring/cold/slow/etc"...not one of them will EVER try it....well apart from the next time they go to Centre Parks :roll:

Face it...most people are lazy and in a hurry constantly and are ignorant to the joys, and advantages, of cycling. Until we lose the need to do everything IMMEDIATELY little will change.

A few of us who have seen the light and value something more than what size wheels on our car, or how to do something with as little effort as possible, will endure and sod the rest of'em.

Oh and I do wish drivers would stop whining about their "rights" to drive on the road that "they pay for with their taxes"...

dirk_van_gently

I listen to people at work saying "I can't believe you cycle...its so dangerous/tiring/cold/slow/etc"...not one of them will EVER try it....well apart from the next time they go to Centre Parks Rolling Eyes

That's quite funny, I'm in Suffolk, about 6 miles from centre parks.

I get the I don't believe etc etc, and yet every morning, almost without fail I complete the journey from home to office, as quickly, in some cases quicker, than many of the cars that pass me when I am leaving home. Yesterday I passed about half a mile of stationary traffic in one go.
Smug?
Not Half!

amt27

alfablue wrote:

amt27 wrote:

unless traffic volume decreased they will have to, i don't understand why the public (consumers) put up with the road network on this island, typical british "keep quiet and don't complain" attitude,

There is no point in increasing traffic capacity, volume will just increase to fill it, creating more road journeys and more environmental damage. Congestion is actually necessary to draw a halt to the massive expansion of private and commercial road traffic.

didn't say anything about increasing capacity - the main problem with the road network is its flow of traffic and how it manages the flow, the management will strick up a traffic light system or plonk a roundabout at a junction without batting an eyelid, why? because all the good engineers and designers are not working thier beaurocratic organisation, they are working where their skills are valued and paid better, in the private sector, only the private sector with strong government targets and control will improve our road transport network,

alfablue wrote:

amt27 wrote:

public are fleeced - well cyclists dont pay road tax do they

so who will pay, will motorists rejoice in funding this wonder-network for cyclists? Will cycling uptake increase as road capacity increases for motorists?

if the government are serious about getting people on bikes, increasing public health and fitness, decreasing the nhs bill, then i am sure they will subsidise this

alfablue wrote:

amt27 wrote:

on your point of shareholders, you don't get the best management and problem solvers unless they make money, and nobody invests without a chance of a return, if you want to keep employing the layers and layers of management in government insitutions, go for it,

There are layers of management topped by fat cats in private institutions, their success is measured and rewarded in performance of shares, not customer service. If this model worked so well, why do rail passengers face service and capacity cuts whilst shareholders get larger dividends. What privatised industries actually do an excellent service for their customers? I fear you're about 20 years out of date, this dogma has been rejected long ago, even the Tories admitted the rail privatisation was a privatisation too far, yet road privatisation makes even less sense.

rail didnt work because of decades of lack of investment, the private sector had to come in and invest and produce a profit, obviously causing a conflict of interests, however if it hadn't of been privatised where would we be now, 40 year old trains, same old crumbling tracks, poor maintenance,
very few modern organisation have the layers and layers of management as a government institution has, because competition with a flatter management structure will destroy them, they cant adapt to change, look at royal mail,
and yes some organisation do have to care about the customer, the government for one, otherwise they are out of office if there is an alternative,

alfablue

Oh well, the private sector is the holy grail, then - the evidence is everywhere!

richard_l

TheFoolio888 wrote:

gilbert_by_proxy wrote:

Do you have a dedicated cycle chappie at your local council?

Not that I can find out...it took about 3 weeks to get any sort of response at all.

My point is that unless they make some sort of statement and implement cycle friendly route then the majority of people will not think of picking up a bike because of its perceived dangers. It would seem that most people would rather sit in their cars looking miserable as I wizz past them getting fit than actually try cycling.

The sort of people who will cycle regardless of the route are already cycling (probably) so how do you get those who say "I would but it's too dangerous" to do so? I can't thik of another way.

Would also suggest you submit your ideas to Pushbikes, who sit on the Cycling Advisory Group with the Council.
http://www.pushbikes.freeserve.co.uk/Council/index.htm

AidanR

The fact that the railways were privatised is not the problem per se, it was the *way* they were privatised - separating rail stock and tracks. Look at Japan for how it should have been done.

The railway has always been subsidised by the public purse, it's just a question of how much. The coming fare hike is due to a reduction in this subsidy more than anything else.

Anyway, the thing's got to be run somehow, either public or private. It's just a shame the private ownership model they followed was more flawed than necessary.

secretsam

gilbert_by_proxy wrote:

TheFoolio888 wrote:

Bearing in mind that this is the same route that has just had ever single corner curbstone lowered for about 5 miles to allow people with prams (I assume) to cross more easily....ignoring the fact that I have NEVER seen anyone need it in the past 12months.

This will most likely be for wheelchair access.

Do you have a dedicated cycle chappie at your local council?

Yup, Disability Discrimination Act ("DDA") and all that, makes life with pushchair SO much easier as well

Lobby your councillor and highways department at the Council...Sustrans may also help...

Brains

I'm afraid until such time as the Groeningen method is seen as 'normal' nothing will happen in the UK.

(Gronigen (spelling) is a large city in Holland, who in the late 70's ripped up their roads and whent over to the bike. Something like 60% of all journeys are now undertaken by bike)

Our cities were rebuilt after WWII with the age of the car in mind, and were modinised from the horse to the car.

It will take another similar catastrophy (Golobal warming/Oil spike ??) to force the redesign of the cities again, this time for the age of the bike.

We might even live to see it

Brains

Wikipedia

[edit] Transport
Groningen has been called the "World Cycling City", since 57% of journeys within the city are made by bicycle.[citation needed] The city is very much adapted to the wishes of those who want to get around without a car, as it has an extensive cycle network, good public transport, and a large pedestrianized zone in the city center

miffed

IMO the best thing for cyclist is not dedicated cycle lanes. Which are 1m wide and shoved into the gutter, meaning all the crud and puddles are right in my way as I cycle along, and any passing car who decides they need to park is just going to block me off causing a filter into the traffic who now because I have my own protectedd area then think Im not supposed to be on "their" road.

But instead have bus/cycle/taxi lanes. These are god-sends in glasgow, the route i take has stretches of these, cars dont normally enter, seeing as a good cyclist is the same speed as a bus that stops at most stops there arent many buses trying to pass, and there arent many taxis in rush hour going out to the suburbs or back into town so they arent there either. In escene it means I get a whole lane of traffic to myself. Cars dont palk their cause the police do fine people for infringing it, its wide enough so cars dont pull into it when turning in off side streets and if some bandit does then its wide enough to allow avasive aciton without being swerving into a car wing bonnet inches from your elbow.

Crapaud

miffed wrote:

But instead have bus/cycle/taxi lanes. These are god-sends in glasgow, the route i take has stretches of these, cars dont normally enter, seeing as a good cyclist is the same speed as a bus that stops at most stops there arent many buses trying to pass, and there arent many taxis in rush hour going out to the suburbs or back into town so they arent there either.

Where in Glasgow are you cycling? I regularly see cars using bus lanes and turning on no left/right turns (bus, taxis, cycles exempt). On Kilmarnock Rd./Eglinton St. it is quite common to see cars parked in the bus lane, as is seeing cars enter the lane to get round the preceding car waiting to turn right. When the Clyde Arc (squinty bridge) opened there was a no left turn onto the bridge from the Broomielaw that was comprehensively ignored to the degree that it's been changed to allow cars to turn there.

One of the scariest things I've seen in a long time was a bus trying to overtake a cyclist in the bus lane on Great Western Rd.- there was sod all room for an overtake there because of the solid line of traffic in the other lane.

I don't disagree that most of the time they work fine, but they are too narrow for overtakes by buses and taxis during the rush hour and need to be better policed, IMO.

miffed

i cycle along great western road/maryhill road depending on the day and how my legs are. Yeah i agree there are sometimes cars in and cars parked on the cycle it there seems to be less than on cycle lanes.

Ive never had a problem being cut up by cars though. I tend to sit in the middle of the lane and if a car is rushing up taking a short cut, i just dont let them past, give them the evil eye and if they continue to be a dick make sure they know its a bus lane.

I guess it depends where you cycle, how fast you go and how you asert yourself and your rights that means if you get messed about.

Parkey

alfablue wrote:

sure, it might even be as good as the privatised rail service, eh? Or would it just be loot for shareholders whilst the public are fleeced???

Our "privatised" rail network is actually subject to far more direct government control than it ever was when it was nationalised. The ever increasing ticket revenue is also being lapped up by government through increased premiums, not TOC shareholders.

The best idea I've seen with regards to encouraging cycling is this: Make everywhere in a city centre accessible by car through radial routes, but otherwise close it to through traffic by pedestrianising and putting in bus/cycle plugs. That reduces traffic and means that often cycling represents the fastest journey option.

Just a thought.

Sea_Green_Incorruptible

I'm with Miffed on this one. I fear that cycle lanes are at best a red herring, at worst actually counter-productive. Even completely separated lanes tend to be poorly maintained and covered in glass and meandering pedestrians. The safest place is actually out in the road with the traffic, where drivers are forced to treat you like another vehicle rather than something that can be squeezed passed, ignored, brushed aside etc.

So maybe one of the earlier posters was right when they said that PERCEPTION of danger was the key problem. Perhaps what we need is not more cycle lanes, but instead a greater effort by councils and others to run free 'introduction to commuting by bike'; 'bike safety in traffic' kind of courses to show newcomers the ropes. If coupled with a suitably proactive ad campaign, maybe this could make a real difference. It would certainly be cheaper than installing cycle lanes all over the place...

miffed

how about everyone who is caught being a muppet in a car, be it talking on their phone, , dangerous driving, cutting up bus lanes, accidents becuase not looking when pulling out of juctions, whatever gets forced to ride on a bike for the next week on top of the normal punishment. Then theyd understand what its like.

How it is enforced, i have no clue. It is only an ideai