Zabel to T-Mobile (again)

iainf72

Is it on or off? Who can tell.

http://www.velonews.com/race/int/articles/13434.0.html

Next up, Vino could return to mentor younger riders!

iainf72

I like this part

"For a possible switch of teams we do not need lawyers, we are all grown-ups," Zabel said.

No, but I'm sure you consulted a lawyer before you admitted to using EPO, eh, Erik?

"Okay, you're sure I can't be punished...."

timoid.

That a fishing rod in your hands Iain?

Zabel's washed up and too proud to play second fiddle to the likes of Ciolek and Cavendish who are now faster than him.

And he looks REALLY weird.

drenkrom

Zabel has said many times he'd like to spend the last few years of his career mentoring young sprinters and has named Ciolek before. I don't think someone with the baggage of experience Zabel has is so deluded that he really thinks he's got many victories ahead of him.

And he probably just wants to get the hell out of Milram. That team looks like Bad-Vibe Central this year.

Kléber

A fine mentor, the man who is bounced into admitting his guilt as an EPO cheat and who can only come up with the "I didn't inhale" line. A perfect mentor... for the likes of Vinokourov or Vandenbrouke, not Ciolek and Cavendish who are already doing very well thanks.

Can T-Mobile really be thinking of hiring him, surely he's a shoe-in for Astana?

phil s

That's a bit harsh. He's a super nice guy and genuinely remorseful for what he did. Guys who are genuinely sorry can make a difference rather than being tossed out to rot on unethical teams.

iainf72

phil s wrote:

That's a bit harsh. He's a super nice guy and genuinely remorseful for what he did. Guys who are genuinely sorry can make a difference rather than being tossed out to rot on unethical teams.

So you're happy he tried EPO. And that's it. Nothing else. And just once?

Ste_S

Is everything black or white in ianf72 land ?

LangerDan

How come when Millar who ,unlike Zabel, actually has a conviction for doping moves to Slipstream, it is presented as a positive (sorry!) and people are convinced he'll use his experience to help target the stresses that may lead riders to dope?

Anyway, if it is an ethically bad move, I'm sure we can expect to see the Wise Virgins who have signed for T-Mobile in the last year leaving en masse.

phil s

iainf72 wrote:

phil s wrote:

That's a bit harsh. He's a super nice guy and genuinely remorseful for what he did. Guys who are genuinely sorry can make a difference rather than being tossed out to rot on unethical teams.

So you're happy he tried EPO. And that's it. Nothing else. And just once?

The fact that I say he has expressed remorse and is genuinely sorry would appear to indicate he did something bad... so please quit playing silly little games and read what I said.
I have no idea if it really was the ridiculous-sounding only-tried-it-once or whether it was a few times or if he did anything else as well. You simply can't know. Zabel has made a confession and it took a lot to do that, whether his hand was forced or not. What is clear is that by his demeanour now and from speaking to him, Zabel could be a good mentor and could turn the younger ones away from the wrong path.

iainf72

phil s wrote:

I have no idea if it really was the ridiculous-sounding only-tried-it-once or whether it was a few times or if he did anything else as well. You simply can't know. Zabel has made a confession and it took a lot to do that, whether his hand was forced or not. What is clear is that by his demeanour now and from speaking to him, Zabel could be a good mentor and could turn the younger ones away from the wrong path.

It took a lot to confess when he couldn't possibly face sanctions? Yes, very brave indeed. He was backed into a corner and had to do it.

As you say though, nobody knows aside from him what he did and didn't do. I remain unconvinced it would be a good idea to employ him as a mentor.

Kléber

No doubt he's a nice guy. But remember, the cheats aren't all swarthy, mean-looking furtive types. Until people are willing to denounce doping and dopers, there's little hope for cleaning up things.

As Iain says, this was no honesty on the part of Zabel, he was forced into make the announcement and would have likely kept quiet forever about this. It was no confession, it was a PR exercise in containment and damage limitation.

top_bhoy

iainf72 wrote:

phil s wrote:

I have no idea if it really was the ridiculous-sounding only-tried-it-once or whether it was a few times or if he did anything else as well. You simply can't know. Zabel has made a confession and it took a lot to do that, whether his hand was forced or not. What is clear is that by his demeanour now and from speaking to him, Zabel could be a good mentor and could turn the younger ones away from the wrong path.

It took a lot to confess when he couldn't possibly face sanctions? Yes, very brave indeed. He was backed into a corner and had to do it.

As you say though, nobody knows aside from him what he did and didn't do. I remain unconvinced it would be a good idea to employ him as a mentor.

I find myself in 100% agreement with you

I was a huge fan of Zabel but for me theres a stench of disgrace and lies surrounding him now. He should have had his jersies stripped and not welcomed back in the role model of a remorseful cheat. Let Astana and their ilk have him - better still, kick them all out as well along with Zabel.

Ste_S

I've got no problem with Zabel joining T Mobile and mentoring Cav and Ciolek.

Going on the presumption that the majority of the ex-riders who are now coaches/DS' have sampled something at one time or another, I'd rather have someone who's admitted to it (whatever the circumstances around his admittance).

I'd have more of a problem with a certain Disco DS coming to work in the BC set-up

top_bhoy

Ste_S wrote:

I've got no problem with Zabel joining T Mobile and mentoring Cav and Ciolek.

Going on the presumption that the majority of the ex-riders who are now coaches/DS' have sampled something at one time or another, I'd rather have someone who's admitted to it (whatever the circumstances around his admittance).

I'd have more of a problem with a certain Disco DS coming to work in the BC set-up

Why should the circumstances around a riders admittance have anything to do with things? Its clear riders would sell their soul to the devil if they could avoid detection so I don't think any understanding of their remorse should be given. I don't think you can pick and choose which cheat you welcome back, some may just be better actors.

On the other hand, has this certain Disco DS which has been intimated, ever been found guilty of or admitted to, doping?

Ste_S

Top_Bhoy wrote:

On the other hand, has this certain Disco DS which has been intimated, ever been found guilty of or admitted to, doping?

No, so he must be clean, right ? I'd rather have someone like Zabel.

If you had a son who was on the verge of joining a pro-tour team, would you rather have him join CSC (fronted by a confessed doper) or a team like Disco (100% clean record) ?

andyp

Ste_S wrote:

No, so he must be clean, right ? I'd rather have someone like Zabel.

If you had a son who was on the verge of joining a pro-tour team, would you rather have him join CSC (fronted by a confessed doper) or a team like Disco (100% clean record) ?

Or CSC (with a credible anti-doping program in place) or Disco (with enough circumstantial evidence available to suggest something there is not right)?

andyp

Back on topic - scroll down to the bottom of this report on www.cyclingnews.com and notice that Zabel might not be the good guy some peope think he is.

To summarise, as part of his confession he pledged €100,000 to youth cycling none of which had been paid out until a German TV program began asking questions.

iainf72

andyp wrote:

Or CSC (with a credible anti-doping program in place) or Disco (with enough circumstantial evidence available to suggest something there is not right)?

CSC or T-Mobile?

top_bhoy

Ste_S wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

On the other hand, has this certain Disco DS which has been intimated, ever been found guilty of or admitted to, doping?

No, so he must be clean, right ? I'd rather have someone like Zabel.

If you had a son who was on the verge of joining a pro-tour team, would you rather have him join CSC (fronted by a confessed doper) or a team like Disco (100% clean record) ?

Of course he isn't necessarily clean. Its the hypocrisy of people easily accepting that a self confessed doper is preferable to one who has been found not guilty of any offence. Personally, I'd accept neither on 1) a confessed doper and 2) very strong circumstantial evidence. Cycling needs neither of this type of person in its ranks and will only flourish when they are removed completely. Until these types are removed, IMO, it will continue a downward spiral to self-destruction on a professional level.

Edit: To answer the 2nd part - ultimately it would be his decision (based on information available) but my preference would be for neither of them. Neither of those teams have displayed the credentials to show that they don't have a doping culture where the riders health isn't being put at risk during the course of carrying out what is ulimately a job of work.

Kléber

It's about signals. You want a new start to cycling and bringing in old faces who've admitted their guilt is not a new way of doing things, is it?

It sends a big message that you're ok with previous mistakes and, somewhere in the back of younger minds, a message will register that cheat and come up with a PR stunt of an apology and you can continue to rake it in.

drenkrom

Could we please lose the one-track mind for a minute? There is more to winning a sprint than what you put on your Corn Flakes in the morning. Ciolek and Cavendish are great sprinters, but their relative inexperience means they are sometimes not positioned as well as they could in the run-in. Who better to put them in the right spot than a past master?

If I were the (admitted ex-doper) DS of a team with a hard public stance on doping, I'd sign the confessed and repentant (maybe) ex-doper before I'd even consider the in-denial (maybe) ex-dopers. But it's not my decision to make and neither is it yours.

It's quite noble to be a goody-two-shoes about anything that concerns doping, but you do remember these guys also ride around on bicycles between the syringe sessions, right? That slight detail seems to get lost on some people on this board once in a while. As far a racing bikes goes, Zabel teaching a few pointers to the mass of talented young sprinters at T-Mob is quite a good move.

Kléber

Sure drenkrom. But let's not bother to pretend that T-Mobile is some kind of saintly team where clean riding is rewarded, despite their PR campaign. No doubt they want Cavendish and Ciolek to improve but there are other ways than recruit Zabel to get there: If you want the image of being whiter than white, stop buying dark paint.

dave_1

From what I can see, Zabel was forced into a confession by D'hont...and only used EPO once...while his permanent roomshare mate, Rolf Aldag, admits to used from the mid 90s through to 2002/3...I guess Eric would have known what was going on. I don't believe Zabel only did it once and don't think he should be in bike racing with T Mobile.

iainf72

drenkrom wrote:

If I were the (admitted ex-doper) DS of a team with a hard public stance on doping, I'd sign the confessed and repentant (maybe) ex-doper before I'd even consider the in-denial (maybe) ex-dopers. But it's not my decision to make and neither is it yours.

Okay. It's 2012 and Tyler Hamilton calls a press conference to announce he's taken a gig mentoring young riders. Oh yeah, and he says, yip, I did all those things in the 00's and I'm sorry I lied.

2012 is when the statute of limitations would've kicked in.

How would you feel about that?

I don't mean to be harsh on guys who took drugs to perform at a top level. What I've got a problem with is turning it into a marketing exercise.

At least Bella Jorg said if he hadn't got nabbed he'd have carry on doing it.

drenkrom

I don't really see the difference between the Hamilton example and Riis mentoring the Schleck brothers. And I don't have too much of a problem with that. Of course, like everyone, I go :roll: when he talks about anti-doping measures, but directly assuming someone can't learn from his own mistakes and will automatically transfer his flaws to other gets the same reaction from me. I still believe in basic human decency. I've been proven wrong many times, but I remain an optimist.

And if doping is still as widespread as most of us believe, do you really think the young ones need Zabel around to dope? I think they're old enough to do it all by themselves. In the end, it doesn't change much one way or another. I'd never buy pink team kit anyways. Oups... sorry... Magenta.

iainf72

drenkrom wrote:

I don't really see the difference between the Hamilton example and Riis mentoring the Schleck brothers. And I don't have too much of a problem with that.

Riis has actually done something positive about it by getting a critic of CSC involved to monitor the riders etc. He's actually done something useful which is why I have more time for him than some of the others.

flattythehurdler

Me too Iain.

top_bhoy

drenkrom wrote:

Could we please lose the one-track mind for a minute? There is more to winning a sprint than what you put on your Corn Flakes in the morning. Ciolek and Cavendish are great sprinters, but their relative inexperience means they are sometimes not positioned as well as they could in the run-in. Who better to put them in the right spot than a past master?

If I were the (admitted ex-doper) DS of a team with a hard public stance on doping, I'd sign the confessed and repentant (maybe) ex-doper before I'd even consider the in-denial (maybe) ex-dopers. But it's not my decision to make and neither is it yours.

It's quite noble to be a goody-two-shoes about anything that concerns doping, but you do remember these guys also ride around on bicycles between the syringe sessions, right? That slight detail seems to get lost on some people on this board once in a while. As far a racing bikes goes, Zabel teaching a few pointers to the mass of talented young sprinters at T-Mob is quite a good move.

What patronising remarks. I doubt whether people forget that in between the use of syringes, they ride a bike nor ignotring that raw talent needs to be nurtured and trained too bring it out to its best. As re. Zabel, again, I doubt whether anyone would question his experience in assisting young riders - the question is surely be 'should he be allowed to'? Given his history I would answer that as a resounding 'No'. As Kléber put it so well, it sends out all the wrong signals to the public and to possible Corporate sponsors that cycling is not prepared to shed its image as a sport of junkies.

I am of the opinion that there is more money to be gained from Corporate sponsorship, TV deals etc by being clean than going down the path it currently is.

rustychisel

Kléber wrote:

If you want the image of being whiter than white, stop buying dark paint.

POST OF THE YEAR!!!!!!!!

Ah, but if only it were so easy.

iainf72

The latest appears to be that Zabel is not going anywhere and will be at Milram next year.

Sheez.