Bruyneel vs IPCT

iainf72

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... sep12news2

Ha, pwned Lavenu somewhat.

But then, Moreau lives in Switzerland so is probably dodgy.

andyp

You think? I thought Bruyneel was being his usual disingenuous self, i.e. the stage he's referring to was one where the action only really began in the last couple of kilometres and, as I recall, the race commentators were surprised by the slow speed the riders had ridden the Peyresourde at up until that point.

The stage to the Plateau de Beille was more eyebrow raising as both Rasmussen and Contador climbed at a VAM rate of around 1800 metres and were faster than Armstrong and Basso in the 2004 race.

iainf72

Ferrari calculated Contador and the Chickens VAM at 1690m/h for the Plateau de Beille. And if you compare the times, Soler, Levi and Sastre were all inside Armstrong and Basso's time for the climb.

I'm basing this on Ferrari's numbers. (and seeing as he brought us the wonders of VAM)

All this really proves is anyone can bandy numbers around to suit their own ends.

DaveyL

I seem to recall the Plateau de Beille stage in 2004 was an absolute killer with about 5 major climbs - perhaps someone can confirm this? Surely the profile of the whole stage, amongst many other factors, will play a part in the VAM on the final climb. However, if someone does put in a stunning (>1800 m/h) performance then I guess it could be viewed with suspicion.

LangerDan

Is this really the best Bruyneel could come up with - "my dodgy Spanish rider climbed a different climb at much the same rate as your dodgy French rider"? I notice that he didn't compare Contador with Evans or someone else perceived to be "clean". Still, next year he can make similar statements about Vino and Kash.

iainf72

LangerDan wrote:

Is this really the best Bruyneel could come up with - "my dodgy Spanish rider climbed a different climb at much the same rate as your dodgy French rider"? I notice that he didn't compare Contador with Evans or someone else perceived to be "clean". Still, next year he can make similar statements about Vino and Kash.

Oh, is it accepted that Moreau is dodgy?

Hard to get decent VAM numbers because the time for climbs is not widely published.

DaveyL

Yes, he rode the 2001 Tour with a hematocrit of 39, according to Vaughters. Very dodgy...

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, he rode the 2001 Tour with a hematocrit of 39, according to Vaughters. Very dodgy...

He lives in Switzerland - Does he hold a French or Swiss license?

LangerDan

DaveyL wrote:

Yes, he rode the 2001 Tour with a hematocrit of 39, according to Vaughters. Very dodgy...

But he also rode (and won) the '98 Criterium International with anabolic steroids and admitted taking EPO as part of the Festina scandal.

If Vaughters is so convinced by Moreau's performances on hct of under 40, perhaps he should sign him. Or is "boom" of his Dauphine performances, followed by the "bust" of his TdF a bit much from a rider with previous "form", approaching the fag-end of his career?

ContrelaMontre

Moreau tested positive for steroids in the dim and distant past and rode for Festina.

Philip S

Didn't the Peyresourde climb see Contador and Rasmussen riding very tactically - ie, relatively slowly, keeping an eye on each other, before Contador made quick bursts and Rasmussen chased him down. Would this require less effort than a consistent head-down pace?

DaveyL

Boom and bust in the Dauphine and the Tour? Doesn't that mean he peaked at the Dauphine? Matt Rendel seems to think he's clean nowadays. Then again, he also said he *wants* to believe in Contador. I think some people on this forum don't *want* to believe in anyone. Understandable in the current climate, but in that case I often wonder why they still follow the sport.

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

He lives in Switzerland - Does he hold a French or Swiss license?

Your point being, I think, that if it's the latter then he might not be clean?

I thought that all riders registered with a French professional team, regardless of where they live, and those that live in France are under the jurisdiction of the French federation so undergo their testing system.

Which would suggest he's cleaner now than he might have been in the past.

FWIW, I think his performances in the summer were those of a clean rider, i.e. good for a 6 week spell covering the Dauphine, the French nationals and the first ten days of the Tour. Then it all went Pete Tong...

LangerDan

I appreciate that people "want" to believe riders are clean - especially riders like Moreau who do appear to suffer and ride hard. However, lets put another spin on it. If another French, ex-Festina rider who has a very similar past - lets call him "Tricky Dicky" for the purposes of this exercise - were to have similar performances towards the end of his career, people would be lined up around the block to claim this as "proof" of doping.

DaveyL

Part of the reason I'm prepared to give Moreau the benefit of the doubt nowadays is that I am not convinced his performances have really improved, but instead that e.g. his Dauphine result is more down to most of his GC rivals either retiring or getting busted!

iainf72

andyp wrote:

I thought that all riders registered with a French professional team, regardless of where they live, and those that live in France are under the jurisdiction of the French federation so undergo their testing system.

That's what I thought - But when Mancebo was bust that didn't appear to be the case. But he's not French, but it's the country where you hold your licence that does the tests, isn't it?

So a short spell of good performance is an indicator of cleaness, eh? Phew, that Lance off the hook.

Titanium

Bruyneel isn't comparing like with like. The Dauphine stage had the Telegraph climb mid race, the Peyresourde was at the end. Moreau flew up the Telegraph but did not win the race.

But now he's walking into a big trap. From now on, it's legitimate to question the VAM set by his riders. How does he want to explain the VAM set by riders like Armstrong and Basso?