Deda Nero Corsa frames

andrew 7

I know that these frames are available branded and unbranded from various retailers - Ribble , Condor , CRC , ebay etc , but without starting the which brand is better post again can any one give me an indication if it builds in to a good frame ? I assume that being built by Deda that the quality is spot on but how does it ride ? Stiff , comfy ? I am thinking of a Centaur build with Euros wheels .

Thanks for your comments .

PKB 27

Hi, I bought a Ribble nero corsa with Ultegra and it builds into a spot on bike, It is comfortable enough for long rides but is still very stiff, am only running Aksiums at the moment, with a good set of light weight wheels it'll be even better. The quality of the finish isn't bad at all, I had a pinarello F4:13 before this and actually prefer riding the nero corsa. I had Eurus wheels on the Pinarello and would reccomend these very highly. Hope this helps. My main advice would be to go and get measured properly, these frames are slightly odd sized.

andylav

Andrew

I've sent you a private message about a Scuro frame - the model above the Nero in Dedacciai's range.

Cheers

Andy

andrew 7

Thanks PKB
I will go down to the shop to get the corrrect size before i part with my hard earned cash.

andrew 7

Has the Ribble been tested in Cycling Weekly yet ?
It was supposed to be in Augusr or have i missed it ?

Down the Road

Would not expect a decent carbon frame to be that cheap. £400 is the price of a mid range ali frame not carbon. Will be most likely made from the materials used to make tennis racquets not Aerospace materails of all the big boys.

Warranty on these frames says iit all

And before anyone asks I have seen and ridden

PKB 27

Two words: BIKE SNOB! i assume by "seen and ridden" you mean seen in passing and ridden your mates bike for 100 yrds down the road. Not everyone can afford colnago/pinarello etc. We'll let Cycling Weekly decide when the test comes out.

acorn_user

The price of carbon frames is coming down very quickly...
http://bikeisland.com/cgi-bin/BKTK_STOR ... ProdID=487
There are others in this price range too.

Down the Road

PKB 27 wrote:

Two words: BIKE SNOB! i assume by "seen and ridden" you mean seen in passing and ridden your mates bike for 100 yrds down the road. Not everyone can afford colnago/pinarello etc. We'll let Cycling Weekly decide when the test comes out.

Seen means a detailed look seeing potential points of early failure Can't see exactly the material due to the cosmetic layer on top. Ridden equals a PROPER test ride that failed to impress.

As for BIKE SNOB not at all don't have and have had a De rosa Pinarello or Colnago I still stand by the moto that you should expect a full carbon frame to ca=ost around a grand to be certain of a lifetime's use.

DEDA are only offering a 3 year warranty.

aracer

Down the Road wrote:

I still stand by the moto that you should expect a full carbon frame to ca=ost around a grand to be certain of a lifetime's use.

DEDA are only offering a 3 year warranty.

You have been taken in by the marketing haven't you? Given the actual cost of production of a cf frame, you should only expect one to cost a grand if you want to be certain of it having a nice brand name on the side.

You do also know that a warranty is simply an insurance policy? I'm sure Deda could offer a lifetime one, though the frame would cost £100 to £200 more in order to finance the cost to them of having to replace a few more. Instead they choose to pass that saving on to you, and you effectively take the risk yourself rather than them taking it (is effectively the difference between paying for insurance for the frame breaking or not - very analagous to extended warranties on electrical goods). I mean it's not as if you never hear of frame failures of frames which do come with lifetime warranties.

Oh, and since I keep on this topic, I should point out that mine is http://pedalforce.com/online/product_in ... cts_id=348 - just under 1kg for a 55cm on my scale (without any of the adjusters and guides, but then I'm fairly sure most companies weigh their frames that way).

pliptrot

Simple folk are repetitive, and simple I am. I've suggested before on this forum that we are being ripped off over carbon frames, and the comments (and snobbery) on this thread make the point quite well.

Why would you expect a "good" carbon frame to be a grand? Does anyone have any real figures on the cost of cf frames? Remember that they're (predominantly) made in very large quantities in low cost countries where such things as environmental and labour concerns are of little significance. The headlong rush into off-shore manufacturing (i.e. the Far East) has led to a sharp decrease in the cost of electronics, clothes, toys, household goods, in fact pretty much every thing other than carbon fibre frames. Why?

Monty Dog

For anyone who's working in marketing, price has nothing to do with cost - it's all about how much the customer is prepared to pay and what the markets sustains. Given that the likes of P-X, Ribble et al are making full carbon bikes for £1000, then taking off Vat and a typical retail margin, the wholesale price of these frames is somewhere around £200 and therefore costs about £100 when it leaves the factory. I know there are others such as Colnago, DeRosa, Look and Time whose cost a lot more - but you're comparing small scale, batch production with high volume. If buying another carbon frame today, I'd probably go for one of the above, but that doen't mean that I think that the Deda frames are no good - in fact they are excellent value and with a company of Deda's reputation, you aren't getting fobbed off with no-name junk. But then again, I've only 20 years experience of working with composites in industry and aerospace to call on - so what do I know? Regarding warranties - as Aracer says, these are no guarantee of quality but are often used as a cynical marketing ploy - often by US companies to try as a means to 'cover-up' poor quality and reliability. Then again, I only have the experience of setting up a multi-million $$ business in the US, so know nothing about marketing and warranties too. Let me guess- you wouldn't happen to ride a Specialized, Trek, Cannondale or Litespeed?

pliptrot

Cynicism comes in various forms, but to completely decouple cost from price takes the biscuit, don't you think? Much more so than offering a decent warranty. It's a strange world where warranties are considered a bad thing.

Alas, US manufacturing isn't quite as bad as you imply, and cynical marketing is as much the preserve of the rest of the world as it is there. If you know anything about composites and aerospace you'll know that the US - thanks mostly to the country's incredible defense expenditure- is way ahead of everyone else. Which may be something to do with why Trek are way ahead of everyone else in composite bike frames.

aracer

Sorry pliptrot, but I've got to pull you up on that one. The only thing Trek are way ahead of everyone else on is mass-marketing of composite bike frames. Plenty of lighter frames, and almost certainly also better ones. Not as if the US is even where the best composite frames are made - arguably that's Taiwan (or factories in China owned by Taiwanese companies, it's hard to keep up). Which is one reason why "Made in Taiwan" is a mark of excellence on a frame, not something to be wary of.

Smokin Joe

Monty has got it dead right on cost v selling price, the two are often unrelated. As for warranties, I would be certain that a lifetime warranty would only apply to the original purchaser. As very few people who are in the market for carbon frames are likely to keep them more than a few years before upgrading, the risk to the manufacturer is quite low.

pliptrot

So how do I find out which is the best carbon frame? There are 2 criteria readily available: weight and price. Well, we've consensus on the fallacy of relating price to quality. Weight? well, arguing between 1000g and 900g is a little churlish, IMHO.

So what else have I got to go on? Trek were 1st to the market with OCLV, and still build their frames in-house, in a very secure facility. Is there not something in that? It's difficult to keep clever processes secret unless you keep them in house, which, it seems, no one else can. Proprietary processes are difficult to protect when yours is one of 100 in a large plant building for many companies.

So what do we have to allow us to choose a cf frame, once we've stripped out the BS, the prejudice, the snobbery and the mendacious nonsense offered up? As for Taiwan being at the forefront, did you know that the US, Japan and Europe account for 93% of carbon fibre manufacture? Which is to say, that the rest of the world doesn't have much, and I'd be inclined to say China (inc. Taiwan) none at all, of a composites industry.

aracer

Maybe you should just check where cf bike frames are actually made - most of the top end ones ARE made in Taiwan/China. Not sure of the relevance of them not making aircraft wings, fishing rods etc. there.

900g compared to 1000g might not be much in the grand scheme of things, but is 10% on the frame weight, which is a pretty significant. proportion. I'll also note that some standard production frames are now under 800g, and you can get a frame under 700g.

I think we're actually singing from the same hymn sheet though, pliptrot - it's just I'm not quite in tune with you. I reckon the best value for money (if that's what you're after) has to be what I've just bought. Otherwise just pick the most expensive as you stand a fair chance of getting somewhere near the best that way.

PKB 27

Should probably appologise to "Off the Front" maybe "BIKE SNOB" was a bit strong, just wanted to get the point over that you don't have to spend big bucks to get a carbon frame that builds into a decent, stiff, lightweight bike.
From the following threads I think that most would agree with that, although I would admit that a (large) lottery win would see me heading for the nearest Look/Pinarello dealership for a 595/Prince!! deep down inside I think we all would.

jedster

pliptrot,

If you know anything about composites and aerospace you'll know that the US - thanks mostly to the country's incredible defense expenditure- is way ahead of everyone else

I disagree.

Finmeccanica (Italy) is making large sections of the carbon fibre body of the new (forthcoming) Boeing 787. Some parts of their manufacturing process are novel and worldleading.

BAE Systems (UK) (and other partners) make the Eurofighter Typhoon a, an essentially all carbon fighter aircraft.

GKN (UK) make many carbon parts for civil and military aircraft

Vestas (Denmark) make very large carbon fibre fabs for their huge wind-turbine blades - they are the world leader in wind turbines

The US does not have unique capabilities in this area.

An important point here is that the entire carbon fibre industry is being scaled up to support the switch in civil aircraft from ally to carbon fibre - 787 will have the first all carbon body, Airbus A350 will have carbon wings. The cost of carbon fibre is going to fall fast.

pliptrot

Jedster,

Well, hoorah for that. I understood that most of the material for Boeing was coming from Toray (Japanese), but made in their plant in the US?

Thanks for correcting me, and the point I am happy to concede, as there are no Chinese or Taiwanese companies in your list of worthies. I'm delighted to see European prowess. Which is why I ride a British bike with Italian bits. The only non European bit on my bike is the computer (Japanese), and -oh yes- now and again my wife rides it, and she's from Singapore!

jedster

pliptrot

I wasn't talking about the people who make the fibre but the people who turn fibre into bits of planes (and other things) - seemed that this was more analagous to frame building. Toray's role is more like that of, say, Alcoa in producing aluminium.

Incidently, it's not clear to me why because Lockheed Martin know lots about carbon fibre, Trek should. Trek probably do but not because the Pentagon spends loads on jet fighters.

J

pliptrot

Note taken. I had it in mind that Trek had an inside track on some declassified defense secrets, which they immediately patented; hence the secrecy in manufacturing. The indigenous connection is, of course, a little tenuous. (Shakespeare was English, but there's no evidence of that here, to reflect the point).

aracer

pliptrot wrote:

Well, hoorah for that. I understood that most of the material for Boeing was coming from Toray (Japanese)

As does the cf for the frame I've just got which was made in Taiwan.

pliptrot

the plot thickens..............