Complete rim failure!

alfablue
alfablue Posts: 8,497
edited August 2007 in Workshop
I am hoping some of you can give me your opinions on this wheel failure.

wheel.jpg

I bought this wheel in February and have used it for about 2000 miles commuting with moderately loaded rear panniers, it has had no rough treatment. Last week I cycled the Celtic Trail and discovered that the rim had cracked in much the same way by every drive-side spoke as per the picture above. I managed to find a bike shop and bought a replacement so my tour continued.

I haven't given this wheel any rough treatment (never used it off road); I was carrying about 18kg on my rear rack (and I weigh 80kg) which should be well within its capabilities.

The rim is a Mavic XC717 26" (Mavic's better cross country mtb rim, double walled double eyeletted) 32 hole with a Shimano XT hub and DB SS spokes, handbuilt by Merlin Cycles.

Obviously I will be taking this up with the shop (I think it must have been either a faulty rim or a poor build), and I am thinking they should replace it and refund me for the cost of the extra wheel I had to buy (I'm an optomist).

Has anyone seen failures like this before? What is the likely cause? Do you think I should have redress from the shop? Thanks in anticipation.

Comments

  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    I've seen similar cracks on wheels that were built with excessive spoke tension. That said, you're a big guy, carrying a heavy load, but it would appear to be a bit premature if you say it's only done a couple of thousand miles. 9/10 wheel problems are due to build quality / (ab)use - take it back to the shop and see what they have to say.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • JustRidecp
    JustRidecp Posts: 302
    lol. Bit harsh there Monty. 80Kg = big? :P
    Real Ultimate Power

    "If I weren't a professional cyclist, I'd be a porn star" - Super Mario
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    JustRidecp wrote:
    lol. Bit harsh there Monty. 80Kg = big? :P
    Yes, I am revising my planned dinner menu now :oops:
  • Monty Dog
    Monty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Sorry, 80kg plus 18kg = 98kg, which is a bit heavier
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • leonlikestrees
    leonlikestrees Posts: 528
    Aren't 717's designed as lightweight XC rims?

    Mavuc make specific touring rims, and they may argue that 717's were never designed for the stresses that a heavily laden touring bike puts on the rim. (not saying they'd be right, just that's what they might say)


    Either way, I'd be tempeted to go for a beefier rim next time.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    leonlikestrees wrote:
    Aren't 717's designed as lightweight XC rims?

    Mavuc make specific touring rims, and they may argue that 717's were never designed for the stresses that a heavily laden touring bike puts on the rim. (not saying they'd be right, just that's what they might say)

    I fear you may be right...
  • leonlikestrees
    leonlikestrees Posts: 528
    It was a lot simpler in the old days when all you had was Mavic 231s. There seem to be so many different rims now.

    I've switched to DT now. They seem to be stiffer to me, and build up nicer.
  • doubleclanger
    doubleclanger Posts: 51
    Chris Judden seems to be quite outspoken in his contempt of anything Mavic!
    my baby elephant would rather walk than be a Campag snob
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    I knew just looking at the picture (but without actually recognizing the rim) that it must be a Mavid. Current Mavic anodised rims are notorious for failing this way. I'd suggest the rim is faulty, but since they are all faulty in the same way, you may have a fight on your hands.
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    Nothing wrong with Mavic - I have used the cheapo mavic cosmos for years now and never had a single problem.

    I do think you need to choose the right rim for the job tho - looks like this one was a little on the light side.
  • vernonlevy
    vernonlevy Posts: 969
    alfablue wrote:
    I am hoping some of you can give me your opinions on this wheel failure.

    wheel.jpg

    I bought this wheel in February and have used it for about 2000 miles commuting with moderately loaded rear panniers, it has had no rough treatment. Last week I cycled the Celtic Trail and discovered that the rim had cracked in much the same way by every drive-side spoke as per the picture above. I managed to find a bike shop and bought a replacement so my tour continued.

    I haven't given this wheel any rough treatment (never used it off road); I was carrying about 18kg on my rear rack (and I weigh 80kg) which should be well within its capabilities.

    The rim is a Mavic XC717 26" (Mavic's better cross country mtb rim, double walled double eyeletted) 32 hole with a Shimano XT hub and DB SS spokes, handbuilt by Merlin Cycles.

    Obviously I will be taking this up with the shop (I think it must have been either a faulty rim or a poor build), and I am thinking they should replace it and refund me for the cost of the extra wheel I had to buy (I'm an optomist).

    Has anyone seen failures like this before? What is the likely cause? Do you think I should have redress from the shop? Thanks in anticipation.

    I had a similar failure while in France twoo weeks ago. My rim was a Mavic 319 and it failed at only one place on the rim. I'd got double the mileage from my wheel as you did and I too bought a replacement wheel to complete my tour - €35 from a Decathlon.

    I've read elsewhere that Mavic rims can fail this way.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    I had a similar failure while in France twoo weeks ago. My rim was a Mavic 319 and it failed at only one place on the rim. I'd got double the mileage from my wheel as you did and I too bought a replacement wheel to complete my tour - €35 from a Decathlon.

    I've read elsewhere that Mavic rims can fail this way.

    Not encouraging - and the A319 is meant for touring I believe.

    Are you happy with / keeping with the Decathlon rim?
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    On the subject of Mavics being crap these days (something I have no knowledge of) some people are switching to the Ambrosio Excellight. Harry Rowland recommends them for light touring.
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    cougie wrote:
    Nothing wrong with Mavic - I have used the cheapo mavic cosmos for years now and never had a single problem.

    So your single data point of non-failure is evidence that there's nothing wrong with any Mavic rims?
  • acorn_user
    acorn_user Posts: 1,137
    DRC have good touring and audax rims too. I'm looking forward to building some up at Christmas. The range is on the Withington cycles homepage. Ambrosios look nice too. I've only ever seen the Montreal sprint though...
  • cougie
    cougie Posts: 22,512
    aracer wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    Nothing wrong with Mavic - I have used the cheapo mavic cosmos for years now and never had a single problem.

    So your single data point of non-failure is evidence that there's nothing wrong with any Mavic rims?

    Well that and the other mavics I've used over the past 25 years or so of cycling.

    If they were all crap - we'd have a lot more failures and nobody would use them any more.
    But look at the bikes at the local bike stop - Mavic will be one of the bigger brands there.

    I'm sure SOME of their models are worse than others though - but in this case - maybe it wasnt the best choice for the use ?
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    cougie wrote:
    aracer wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    Nothing wrong with Mavic - I have used the cheapo mavic cosmos for years now and never had a single problem.

    So your single data point of non-failure is evidence that there's nothing wrong with any Mavic rims?

    Well that and the other mavics I've used over the past 25 years or so of cycling.

    If they were all crap - we'd have a lot more failures and nobody would use them any more.
    But look at the bikes at the local bike stop - Mavic will be one of the bigger brands there.

    I'm sure SOME of their models are worse than others though - but in this case - maybe it wasnt the best choice for the use ?

    I tend to agree as I have always used Mavic rims without problem, and they must be the most used rims on all but low-end bikes. I still feel the pattern of failure points to the build, possibly linked to use (though it still seems odd to me that moderately loaded touring is harsher than the often quite crazy off-road riding I have done in the past with 517s).
  • leonlikestrees
    leonlikestrees Posts: 528
    alfablue wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    aracer wrote:
    cougie wrote:
    Nothing wrong with Mavic - I have used the cheapo mavic cosmos for years now and never had a single problem.

    So your single data point of non-failure is evidence that there's nothing wrong with any Mavic rims?

    Well that and the other mavics I've used over the past 25 years or so of cycling.

    If they were all crap - we'd have a lot more failures and nobody would use them any more.
    But look at the bikes at the local bike stop - Mavic will be one of the bigger brands there.

    I'm sure SOME of their models are worse than others though - but in this case - maybe it wasnt the best choice for the use ?

    I tend to agree as I have always used Mavic rims without problem, and they must be the most used rims on all but low-end bikes. I still feel the pattern of failure points to the build, possibly linked to use (though it still seems odd to me that moderately loaded touring is harsher than the often quite crazy off-road riding I have done in the past with 517s).

    Purely anecdotal I agree, but I have built my own wheels for over 10 years now, and I think the quality of Mavic rims has gone down. I haven't had any failure problems as such, but I find them harder to build with than I used to. I think they are maybe not as true as they used to be?

    As I said earlier, I use DT now and they seem fine to me. I occasionally still use mavic too, especially the cheaper rims which I think are great for the money (CXP22 seem a good all round rim).
  • andrew_s
    andrew_s Posts: 2,511
    It looks to me like the wheel was built with more tension on the spokes than the rim would take.
    The weight of rider and luggage shouldn't have any bearing on the failure, as the effect of loading the wheel is to reduce the tension in the bottom spoke or 2. It does not increase the tension in any of the spokes to any significant degree.
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    andrew_s wrote:
    It looks to me like the wheel was built with more tension on the spokes than the rim would take.

    I think that's the cause - though with properly made rims the limit should be down to the stiffness of the rim, not the propensity of the rim to crack due to the anodising. Most wheels are built with too little tension rather than too much so you won't see this problem (particularly why it's not seen on cheaper bikes, as machine built wheels almost always come with low tension). That along with the fact it affects only anodised rims is possibly why many long term Mavic users haven't seen it. Not a new problem at all - the old 217s (I think that's the right model number) were notorious for failing in this way. I've actually got plenty of Mavic rims myself and not had a problem (though most aren't anodised), but seen enough reports to believe it is a fault.
  • fossyant
    fossyant Posts: 2,549
    That's a bad failure - I'd see what the shop has to say.

    I've used Mavic rims and hubs for over 20 years and they are about the best. Never had a failure, other than a worn out set of Mavic MA40's - brake surface wore thin then cracked - but was noticed before any issues !

    That's not good on your set - see what happens.....
  • vernonlevy
    vernonlevy Posts: 969
    alfablue wrote:
    I had a similar failure while in France twoo weeks ago. My rim was a Mavic 319 and it failed at only one place on the rim. I'd got double the mileage from my wheel as you did and I too bought a replacement wheel to complete my tour - €35 from a Decathlon.

    I've read elsewhere that Mavic rims can fail this way.

    Not encouraging - and the A319 is meant for touring I believe.

    Are you happy with / keeping with the Decathlon rim?

    The Decathlon wheel is being used on a temporary basis. It's build quality is not too good. it's was stocked as a 29" MTB wheel and the rim has to be seen to be believed. The holes through the inner wall of the two wall construction have simply been punched through to drop the nipples in. The rim has a butted joint as opposed to a welded joint. It's served it's purpose in getting me to the end of the ride but I will not be relying on it for touring.

    I gave the 319 a hard time as I weight 21+ stones plus camping gear. Most wheels will strugglewith that sort of loading I think.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Ok, I got a reply from Merlin (just an hour into business opening after the bank holiday - so full marks to them on that score).

    They said
    If you return the rear with with a covering letter and a copy of your reciept we will look at replacing it for you. Please note that if XC717 rims crack around the eyelets it is always when they've been run with slicks for long periods and usually with panniers. Please note that it is a lightweight cross country rim and is not best suited to this. I would recommend a replacement with an XM719 or EX721 to avoid this happening again.

    which I think is an excellent and reasonable response from them.

    My problem is that when commuting I use Specialized All Condition Pro 26 x 1.0 slicks, and wish to continue (for touring I use Schwalbe Marathon 26x1.5, for occasional off-road I use Panaracer Fire XC 26x1.95).

    The XC717 which they are suggesting is unsuitable, is recommended for tyre sizes 1.0 to 2.1; the alternatives are for wider tyres, the XM719 is for 1.5 to 2.3; and the EN721 (the strogest of the lot) is for 2.3 to 3.0.

    I am prepared to use a different wheelset for occasional XC, but I really want to use the 1.0 slicks for commuting - they are so fast. I don't think Merlin offer any other rim possibilities, so I am not too sure what to do.

    I guess I could buy a specific touring wheel elsewhere (any suggestions for what would meet my needs?) and hope for a refund or accept the replacement wheel and sell it on, or should I risk another XC717, or can I run the XM719 with 1.0 slicks? Any thoughts?

    As far as Merlin are concerned they deserve a pat on the back so far for their prompt and helpful response and I reckon they offer good service (though naturally they studiously ignored my suggestion that the drive side was overtensioned, but then I wouldn't expect an admission to that even before they see the wheel, if at all).
  • Pagem
    Pagem Posts: 244
    phew! for one awful moment there i thought i'd accidentally stumbled upon some fetish thread.
    Only the meek get pinched. The bold survive.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    Okay, answering my own question, I think I may have to go for a Spa Cycles Sputnik / XT - this fits tyres from 28-51 (1.1 to 2.0) - I am hoping it will be okay to fit a 1.0 tyre - any thoughts or experience with these?
  • aracer
    aracer Posts: 1,649
    Pretty much anything narrow enough non-Mavic should be fine. It's not the narrow tyres per-se that's the problem, but the fact that you tend to pump them up to higher pressures which stresses the rim more. I'd suggest those Sputniks are a tad wide - Rigida do other narrower rims which should suit. We've had Rigida DP22 rims on the tandem with 1.3" slicks running at 120psi for years (those tyres at that pressure stress the rim more than narrower ones would).
  • Eurostar
    Eurostar Posts: 1,806
    Eurostar wrote:
    On the subject of Mavics being crap these days (something I have no knowledge of) some people are switching to the Ambrosio Excellight. Harry Rowland recommends them for light touring.

    Update - I spoke to Harry today. He says there was a manufacturing problem with a certain batch or batches of Open Pros. He says the problem does not become apparent until you've almost finished building the wheel. He says he tries to buy only from Chicken because they don't seem to have any duff ones. But other distributors do. I hope this helps.

    I ordered some OP ceramics from him today.
    <hr>
    <h6>What\'s the point of going out? We\'re just going to end up back here anyway</h6>
  • leonlikestrees
    leonlikestrees Posts: 528
    If you return the rear with with a covering letter and a copy of your reciept we will look at replacing it for you. Please note that if XC717 rims crack around the eyelets it is always when they've been run with slicks for long periods and usually with panniers. Please note that it is a lightweight cross country rim and is not best suited to this. I would recommend a replacement with an XM719 or EX721 to avoid this happening again.

    How much do I win for my prize? OR do you think they just read my post on the thread and copied it :lol:
  • franklin pierce
    franklin pierce Posts: 127
    Anecdotically, someone broght an anodised mavic tubular rim into the LBS (I don't recall which model numper) which had that wonderful looking spoke hole cracking at about half of the spokes. And it certainly wasn't an over-tensioned wheel.

    I won't buy new mavic until they can go a couple of decades without this sort of nonsense any more.
  • alfablue
    alfablue Posts: 8,497
    leonlikestrees wrote:
    If you return the rear with with a covering letter and a copy of your reciept we will look at replacing it for you. Please note that if XC717 rims crack around the eyelets it is always when they've been run with slicks for long periods and usually with panniers. Please note that it is a lightweight cross country rim and is not best suited to this. I would recommend a replacement with an XM719 or EX721 to avoid this happening again.

    How much do I win for my prize? OR do you think they just read my post on the thread and copied it :lol:

    Yep - the prize is ................................................

    my old rim! :lol:

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