New on Here - Losing Faith?

Moomaloid

Hey guys this is my first post on here having just discovered the site. Just wanted to share my thoughts on the scene with you.

Its been a few years since i last climbed on my bike. Due to various things i left bike riding behind for some time, but i always kept my eye on results in the pro races.

What has annoyed me most about this years tour, is the fact that for the past few years i have constantly fought cycling's corner.Throughout all the previous revelations from past years, i have defended the name of cycling to the hilt. Especially against people from outside the sport.

But even i this year have had to take stock, and ask myself if i can continue to do this. It hurts. The weird thing is, that this year my hunger for cycling has be re-ignited, and i am soon to purchase my first new bike for years. Yet i have found myself questioning my belief in the professional sport.

I'm interested to see if many of you are the same. I have read various threads on here and many seem to have given up on the sport many moons ago. Which i find quite worrying.

If the sponsors begin to pull out will this spell the end of the sport as we know it? With no money being funneled in, will the historic races be able to continue... I found it very dis heartening to read Bradley Wiggin's statement when his team got xpelled, 'I find myself thinking what is the point', totally understandable at that time, but such a sad thing to hear.

Where do we go from here? Finding out heroes from our past did it with the help of doping has shattered many of us, but surely we can not give up on our sport. FOr me there is NO other sport that gives us what pro cycling does. The history, the legends, the passion. This is what many outside the sport don't understand, and why they find it so easy to take a swipe. We need to believe that there is a brighter future.

I also believe that these guys who have done it, do it purely because of outside pressure, from sponsors, fans, media... the weight of expectation is unbelievable nowadays and the bars have been lifted to seemingly unattainable levels.... this has to be addressed to get our sport back to what it was...

i hope we can.....

Kléber

You might enjoy food but this doesn't mean you support the celebrity chefs. You might enjoy listening to music, but you don't have to be a fan of the X-factor. Maybe you enjoy beer, but you don't have to be a cheerleader for Scottish & Newcastle plc.

Pro cycling can be the best of sports, it's tough and packed with legends and history and when a colleagues or friends ask us what we did at the weekend, they'll often associate it with Lance Armstrong or the Tour de France.

No one is giving up on cycling here, some of us are just disillusioned by the way some people within pro cycling behave, they're not learning lessons and live in denial.

Just ride your bike, this is what it's all about. It's great news that you're into cycling, that you're getting a new bike. Enjoy it!

Moomaloid

Oh i can't wait..... back to my good old time trial days....

I too am disillusioned i just hope that we manage to get it back to what it was, the best sport in the world.

Eurostar

I don't know where we go from here. The whole thing is such a sordid mess. All I want to do is wind the clock back to the days of Hinault vs Lemond before I knew anything about doping.

Moomaloid

The worrying thing for me is that we seem so far away from a conclusion. And will we ever really truly believe its clean again...

Its a difficult one, but at least cycling are at the forefront and trying to do something about it.

Was waching the 85/86 tour clips on youtube last night... fantastic!

Mark Alexander

No, I'm an optomist. I say thy're starting to cach the buggers.

dirk_van_gently

Like Kléber says just go ride and enjoy it for what it is.

IF operation Puerto ever makes public knowledge what other (non cycling) sports persons were involved, watch the stuff hit the fan!! in my opinion there isn't a clean sport out there.

jimmythecuckoo

I think cycling will be ok if people keep riding their bikes and not worrying about the pro-scene. We cannot influence what happens there so we should just enjoy what we do.

That's my new philosophy.

mangaman

I've been losing my interest gradually over the last few years

I've always suspended my disbelief and just watched the thrills and excitement of the big stages and classics and tried to forget doping

Recently though I've found I don't really care who wins

Even my favourite stage race (Giro) I didn't feel any excitement watching Di Luca / Mazzoleni et al - it all looked too easy. Just like Basso the year before

As for the TDF I really didn't care who won. For the first time since 1989 I hardly even watched the last week

Maybe I should get more intereted in local amateur racing

iainf72

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

I think cycling will be ok if people keep riding their bikes and not worrying about the pro-scene. We cannot influence what happens there so we should just enjoy what we do.

That's my new philosophy.

What about people who don't cycle themselves but enjoy cycle racing as a sport?

Kléber

Just suspend belief your belief Iain. It's like watching a magician, you know they're not really sawing the assistant in two but have to let yourself go along with the show otherwise it's boring.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Just suspend belief your belief Iain. It's like watching a magician, you know they're not really sawing the assistant in two but have to let yourself go along with the show otherwise it's boring.

Wait a minute, they don't actually cut the people in half?
:shock:

dave_1

I am not in the UK at the minute, but if I was, there´d be absolutely no way I´d go to watch that bunch, specifically the pro tour outfits, and lesser UCi continental teams who are deseperate , potentially many dopers IMO... based on what we have learned this past 15 months, ride past at the Tour of Britain-that´s how I feel and how they deserve to be regarded at the moment. Many will not agree with my sentiments..but rightly or wrongly, this is how I feel at this sport just now. How about you? Is it worth troubling yourself to go and watch a pro tour team?

Titanium

You can cheer on the clean riders but that's like rooting for a guy to finish 67th instead of 71st. There's a roll call of major names who are now exposed as cheats and as sure as night is day we will see more riders busted.

I care for this because these cheats are denying the innocent riders a decent living. If everyone gave up on pro cycling it would send a signal to some but teams would go and this punishes the guilty and innocent guys at the same time.

You need to get behind teams that support their riders and which create a good atmosphere where riders are not pressured to cheat. T-Mobile is a borderline case but the likes of Bouygues or FDJeux are doing it right.

Monty Dog

Well Henri Desgrange thought about folding the Tour in 1904 - the 2nd year - because of the blatent cheating by riders including the use of cars, trains and the ample distribution of metal tacks on the road - and it's still here 104 years later! There was probably a similar level of debate in 1967 following Simpson's death and similar sentiments in 1998. We're applying our Anglo-Saxon values to a race predominantly run for Europeans, who are all for spectacle and don't mind as much if there's a little bending of the rules. There'll probably be a rationalisation - Larry Ellison will continue to blow millions on racing yachts anyway. For me, I don't mind if a few North American sponsors catch a cold - the win at 'all' costs mentality is tiresome - long may the European heritage continue

Titanium

Monty Dog wrote:

For me, I don't mind if a few North American sponsors catch a cold - the win at 'all' costs mentality is tiresome - long may the European heritage continue

So Americans bring the win at all costs mentality to European cycling? Unlike Basso, Ullrich, Virenque, Millar, Vinokourov, Mayo, Riis, Heras, Perez, Gutierrez, Mazzoleni, Vandenbroucke and Bruyneel? :?
As for 'anglo-saxon values', if this means an intolerance of doping, the French were applying these values long before Millar was exposed, polls nominated Virenque as public enemy no.2 after far right bullyboy Jean Marie Le Pen and today half of France wanted the Tour to stop. Ever since Kaiser Ullrich was busted the Germans have been the same too.
The difference today is that the stuff these guys are taking makes such a big difference. Previous products could only offer a short boost (amphetamines) or helped in training (testosterone) or revovery (cortisone). Now EPO and blood doping are adding upto 1 watt per kilo for a rider and it is ruining the results. You have guys doing >2000 VAM and even Dr Ferrari is getting shocked by this.

esmit208

Most of us ARE disheartened by the sad state of affairs associated with professional cycling these days. You are not in the boat alone. As well you are not in the boat alone as an ENTHUSIAST. Yes, how is the viewer/ non-enthusiast supposed to feel? Well for the enthusiasts it is all about riding the bike. It disappoints us all when a cheat is exposed regardless of sport or life in general. I grew up on a bike. Mom or Mum , for the European readers didn't have a mini-van to shuttle me and my siblings around so if we wanted to go somewhere it was take to the cicletta. I for one will continue to watch with great interest because( A.) I am a fan, ( B.) I am an enthusiast, and (C.) Even though it seems some haven't gotten the message the window of deceit is rapidly closing and those with their fingers on the sill will get them slammed. Surfing and cycling take a crap on what other guys do for fun. I really enjoy them both and I wouldn't get off my bike or my board if both sports at the professional level ceased to exist tomorrow. ONE MAN'S OPINION!

campagchris

It was interesting to read Paul Kimmages article in cycling weekly he cant remember the last clean tour winner (my interpretation of it).
At the end of the day we can't change what has gone and Im in doubt it was a level playing field as I think they have all cheated.The future looks rosier and times will come down in the big tours but still be exciting,heres to the future and the new generation.
It hasn't stopped me riding my bike

Kléber

Why does the future look rosier?

Despite the mania, the Tour de France only tested five riders a day, the yellow jersey, the stage winner and three random riders. With only three riders being picked at random, you have a 1.5% chance of being picked. And this in the world's biggest bike race during a era when the organisers seem paranoid about doping. If this is an anti-doping policy, I'm Frank Vandenbrouke's dog.

Only this summer we saw riders climbing the cols in the Tour de France at rates higher than Lance Armstrong, Pantani, Perez or Heras. A few are getting caught, but probably because they made stupid mistakes, like mixing up blood bags or taking testosterone during training and then giving blood, only to re-infuse it during a race and then test positive.

Plus ca change...

campagchris

Because the riders are sick
The sponsors are sick
the t.v.companies are sick
the press are sick
and if they dont get their act together now they wont have a career
So I think it looks rosier now

Monty Dog

I think the whole ethos of professional sport is going to be servely tested in the next few year - particularly when the Chinese mop-up at next years Olympics.
Witness the apparent reluctance of sponsors to support Barry Bonds as he broke the all-time home run record - but plenty of people still watch baseball.

iainf72

Titanium wrote:

Monty Dog wrote:

For me, I don't mind if a few North American sponsors catch a cold - the win at 'all' costs mentality is tiresome - long may the European heritage continue

So Americans bring the win at all costs mentality to European cycling? Unlike Basso, Ullrich, Virenque, Millar, Vinokourov, Mayo, Riis, Heras, Perez, Gutierrez, Mazzoleni, Vandenbroucke and Bruyneel? :?

There is also the ironic comedy value that the last 2 grand tour winners we know were clean happened to be American.

Moomaloid

It was really disheartening to read Kimmage's interview, yet at the same time i found myself feeling for Paul too. For years he's had to bear the wrath of Professional Cycling as the whole system buried its head in the sand and refused to admit what was going on.

Now unfortunately it may have gone too far. How do we come back from this? How do we re build our sport? yeah cool i can go and ride my bike and let them get on with it, but i love professional bike racing.

jimmythecuckoo

I feel strangely optimistic about the future. People talk about depressed individuals reaching Rock Bottom, let's hope this is the start of an upward trend.

emaichael

sorry to sound....negative or a bit ott.
but does anyone think that in the last like.. 30 years that tdf has been won by anyone who hasnt doped? because someones got to win... and if doper after doper gets caught, theres still going to be more. and the chances are the results wont come back positive.
but i'm probably totally wrong. infact i am, because Lance Armstrong is my hero! and i dont believe he took drugs to enhance his performance. but... well theres always that inkling feeling inside caused by the reputation of the sport that sais ''what if he had, uv been supporting a guy and believing in a cheat!' and its just horrible that the certainty can't be there to be sure they haven't all drugged, the whole F'in lot...
because the amount of times ive heard people say stuff to sway my point of view on there being any hope for the sport to be clean of drugs. like for example ''auntie how far did your brother get when he was into road cycling?'
her reply to me: 'he got into the qualifiers and was extremely close to continuing in the team he was in to go to tour de france'
i ask my aunt : so what happened, how come he didn't go all the way, was he just not fast enough, please tell me the details, i'm interested to know''
Auntie's reply: ''the team were constantly pressuring him, even one of his best friends, he'd cycled with as a partner from the start, was to persuade him to take drugs, steroids i think,, and he refused to and was dropped by the team and he stuck to just enjoying the sport''
this is exactly how i remember her saying it, a fare few yrs ago i asked this, but this sticks in my mind... the very thought of going to the top, and the team dropping you because you didnt take drugs and doped like them. sickens me to think of it.

Deuce

Hi Moomaloid, to return to your remark on your original post. I do not think that it is just external pressures that have lead to the cheating and the fan's long acceptance.

Anyone who has ridden a bike in a group and felt the shame of being dropped or only kept contact with another rider on a climb (while your heart is pounding and your stomach is cramping and you are in a world of pain) because of a "rage" that takes you over and quickly dissipates as your heart rate falls, is not so quick to judge.

I have always found the "role model" argument for professional sport to be largely bogus.

What the professional cycling does better than any other sport is to give us epic stories, the drugs and innuendo are just another element of this.

Moomaloid

emaichael i know how u feel. Lance was for me too, and no doubt thousands of others, a true hero. But with this years tour i decided to really take a look into the arguments, and the interviews on the 'Competitors' podcasts have been really eye opening and somewhat distressing.

I was always of the opinion that Lance had been subjected to that much treatment and chemicals that to pump more sh*t into it was just an insane proposition. But the more u find out about it all and the more revelations that come out about others u just don't know if u can have that belief anymore. I know i'm wavering big style and just being realistic now.

Its just sad that it seems all of my heros from my teenage years look to doped to some degree. Very sad.

emaichael

Moomaloid wrote:

Its just sad that it seems all of my heros from my teenage years look to doped to some degree. Very sad.

exactly how i feel.
so my aim... well it may sound silly to anyone! but. my aim is to win tdf. because how can a chemical, make you Better than someone?
if your body is physically the same as someone whos doped, then why cant you perform at the same level?
its because of pain... how you think and your body feels when being subjected to vicious cycling.
but if you have a strong mind. and ignore what you feel. then you can beat the dopers, the zoids!
there lazy cyclists. who take the easy option, to mask there senses with drugs, instead of over coming the pain mentally they use drugs.
and so i think its possible to over come it without drugs. (or finding a food alternative which isnt classed as a drug, but still delivers some body changes.)
or am i just talking a load of nonsense? lol, i probably am, but... i like to think that i stand a chance in comparison to doping cyclists.
imagine how a doped cyclist must feel if... someone who hasnt doped zooms past them on a hill climb and beats them. lol the look o there face will be priceless.

iainf72

emaichael wrote:

Moomaloid wrote:

so my aim... well it may sound silly to anyone! but. my aim is to win tdf. because how can a chemical, make you Better than someone?
if your body is physically the same as someone whos doped, then why cant you perform at the same level?

Erm, because when you're doping you take your body to another physical level, espeically if you're talking blood doping.

2 athletes of similar levels, one on EPO, the other not, the EPO powered guy will win every single time.