Hills Vs. Wind

driverpm

Currently i commute about 10 miles over pretty much flat road (only get mild inclines here in the fens), but i do get faced with some pretty challenging winds at times

This morning was a prime example as Icruised into work at about 28mph (on my hybrid ) sitting in that sweet zone of eerie quiteness flying along with minimal effort. BRILLIANT! Although I know that I'll probably be averaging only about 10-12mph on the way home as I fight against the wind, I started to wonder:
Assuming equal cadence in an equal gear, the effort required to climb a hill at 10mph must be the same as battling a wind at the same speed. Therefore, assuming i don't want to cycle a long way to find some hills, can i get some decent training in by making sure i cycle into the wind on windy days? Just trying to think of easy ( :?) ways to avoid losing hill fitness once already gained, or indeed in preparation for a future hilly ride?

any thoughts?

piedwagtail91

at least one of the top hill climbers in the 70's was reported in one of the mags at the time to be doing flat out intervals on flat roads in preparation for the national hillclimb.
i tend to look at it this way, your lungs heart and legs don't know if you're going uphill or not, they're just working if you're fit you should be able to climb, well ,within reason/ability, all that is missing is technique , knowing how to pace youself and the mental side of climbing.

CarlosFerreiro

I think on the flat the power required varies with the square of the speed, while on hills it would be nearer to varying with the speed directly, but as long as you are not looking for any kind of repeatable measure it should all be good.

stevec205gti

I also experince this wonderful fenland phenomina on a regular basis! Fortunately, I grew up on the Isle of Wight, then moved up to Staffordshire so have experienced hills as well! (Though on the Island you get both!!!) The big difference between the wind and hills is that the wind is pretty much always blustery - you get a strong gust, then it tails off a bit for you to recover before the next big gust comes along. Hills aren't so kind to you - they can have the same affect as a strong gust, but this goes on and on until you reach the top!!!

Eat My Dust

piedwagtail91 wrote:

at least one of the top hill climbers in the 70's was reported in one of the mags at the time to be doing flat out intervals on flat roads in preparation for the national hillclimb.
i tend to look at it this way, your lungs heart and legs don't know if you're going uphill or not, they're just working if you're fit you should be able to climb, well ,within reason/ability, all that is missing is technique , knowing how to pace youself and the mental side of climbing.

LOL, I knew I wasn't wasting my time by training down hill!!!!

Clever Pun

I hate the wind, it's always a head wind (or feels like it anyways) Hills I can see and you get the good feeling when you get to the top... with wind all you get is slowed down

doesn't really help just felt the need to say that

driverpm

stevec205gti wrote:

I also experince this wonderful fenland phenomina on a regular basis! Fortunately, I grew up on the Isle of Wight, then moved up to Staffordshire so have experienced hills as well! (Though on the Island you get both!!!)

I know what you mean as i lived and cycled in Edinburgh for a couple of years - somehow the wind never blows uphill! :evil:

piedwagtail91

strange how people from flat areas want to climb, but i know myself and a few others who would love to go out of the door and not see a hill all day, which in this area is impossible without a 20 mile car journey!

scapaslow

I think it would have to be a seriously strong wind to come close to simulating hills and even then it would be too dangerous to ride your bike for fear of a crosswind blowing you across the road.
I cycled for a long time in Orkney (Northern Isles) where it is almost always windy. Very windy. Sometimes you need to select an easy gear just to make any headway on a flat stretch but although its good exercise its just not the same as the effort required on steep hills. Good TT training though.
If its hill training you want - you need hills. You could consider putting the bike in a car and driving to your nearest hills.

driverpm

Thanks for your thoughts, but

same cadence, same gear, same speed = same effort?
or am i being really dim?
molecular biologist not a physicist so no 'real' scientific answers please

guess i'm looking for the silver lining in the cloud that always seems to darken my journey home! Not that i wouldn't do it if there were no silver just want positive thought to get me through the last couple of crawling miles.

CarlosFerreiro

Same wattage on the flat as on on the hill = same effort.

You could be cruising at a lower cadence in a "hill climb" gear and doing the same speed.
If you're putting in the same effort at the same cadence then it's not so far from hill climbing.

I'm from Shetland, where we call Orkney "the place with not much wind" ;-)

driverpm

driverpm wrote:

same cadence, same gear, same speed = same effort?
.

What a NUMPTY! DOH! it's been one of those days - i'm tired and emotional and suffering from an Amy winehouse-esque bout of 'extreme exhaustion' (reading Masters theses will do that to you!)

i would have corrected myself sooner but had to wait for PC to re-boot
of course same cadace, same gear equals same speed, but the effort required to achieve the same cadence in the same gear will vary with the conditions.
Sorry!
Thanks CarlosFerreiro, i thought i might get away with my error but you jumped in and meant that i couldn't edit my embarrasment away :oops:
i guess bottom line is that if it hurts as much it's as tough!

Dorian Gray

CarlosFerreiro wrote:

I think on the flat the power required varies with the square of the speed

Cube actually! Pretty terrifying when you think about the speeds the pros do. Doubling speed requires eight times more power (on the flat). That's due to air resistance, which forms the vast majority of your overall resistance when cycling. Which is why aerodynamics are so incredibly important in cycling, and why you can significantly improve your speed simply by forcing yourself to stay on the drops.

Wind, hills, etc., none of this matters to the "effort". You can sprint down a hill and hit 100% heart rate if you want to. You can sally up hills in your lowest gear while practically resting.

What is important is that you push hard, and that can be done (or not done!) irrespective of conditions.

But this assumes that you're a robot with no emotions. In reality, people tire themselves out against headwinds because going slow is demoralising, so they try harder. Luckily, for maximum overall speed on a loop, it just so happens that you should work harder against the wind than with the tailwind, due to the cube relationship I mentioned at the start of this post. In other words, you spend more time working against the headwind than with the tailwind on a loop, so it's best to work hard to reduce the longer portion of the ride.

The other factor to take into account is that some types of riding require specific practice, as you need to learn the technique as well as be fit. Climbing uses a different technique from riding against headwinds, and therefore uses the muscles in very slightly different ways also. Riding at speed requires an aerodynamic position more than anything else, so you won't learn that by climbing hills. So specific training is important, though not really for simple cardiovascular fitness.

overmars

I think your body does know if you're on a hill. For me, at least, hill climbling is more of a rhythm. Breathing and pedalling. Once you settle in to it you're almost guarenteed to get to the top.
I don't think a strong wind blowing against you can prepare you for that.

You need to find hills and practice on them. Or as the great Buddah said:
"When you meet the hill... kill the hill."

... I'm paraphrasing wildly, but you get the point. 8)

Mark Alexander

piedwagtail91 wrote:

strange how people from flat areas want to climb, but i know myself and a few others who would love to go out of the door and not see a hill all day, which in this area is impossible without a 20 mile car journey!

I'm in a hilly area and love hills. What is it like to ride in flat places? Flat, that's a novel idea.

Garybee

Living in Lincolnshire at the moment i spend a lot of time forcing into a headwind on training rides. As long as your putting out the Wattage i don't think it really matters what incline you're training on. Whenever i get to a hill in a race i have no trouble ditching the rest of the field despite rarely getting to climb any decent hills.

aberfeldyweather

you will just have to face the fact that you have no hills and deep down you know that its not proper cycling :twisted: and that the basket at the front of your bike is not aerodynamic no matter how useful...





(joking, joking)

larmurf

CarlosFerreiro wrote:

I think on the flat the power required varies with the square of the speed, while on hills it would be nearer to varying with the speed directly, but as long as you are not looking for any kind of repeatable measure it should all be good.

Yes Carlos
But how does training into the wind compare with climbing hills
My own opinion is that you can get a similar training effect for heart and lungs
cycling into a strong wind but to build hill climbing muscles you need to climb hills

driverpm

aberfeldyweather wrote:

you will just have to face the fact that you have no hills and deep down you know that its not proper cycling :twisted: and that the basket at the front of your bike is not aerodynamic no matter how useful...

(joking, joking)

Actually i'm thinking of getting a bigger basket to increase my wind resistance and therefore get to train harder with no hills. they're sooooo useful too, none of this dislocating a shoulder malarky to get pasty, pork pie or other suitable energy food out of your back pocket, everythings just there to hand (might ditch the ribbons, spokey dokeys and stabilisers at some point in the not too distant future though)

CarlosFerreiro

larmurf wrote:

CarlosFerreiro wrote:

I think on the flat the power required varies with the square of the speed, while on hills it would be nearer to varying with the speed directly, but as long as you are not looking for any kind of repeatable measure it should all be good.

Yes Carlos
But how does training into the wind compare with climbing hills
My own opinion is that you can get a similar training effect for heart and lungs
cycling into a strong wind but to build hill climbing muscles you need to climb hills

I think it depends what kind of hill climbing you are comparing.
A long 8% drag with no wind migh be reasonably compared with a 5% climb into a particular head wind.

If you are comparing a 15% out of the saddle climb with a windy ride on the flat then I suppose you are looking at quite serious winds ;-)

But seriously, I think the difference comes in that dropping from 15km/h to 10km/h on the flat maybe drops your power requriements 25% where the same speed drop on the hill maybe drops it 9%.... so it really breaks any direct connection, and leaves us where you are only talking about using the wind as a different form of resistance traiing?