Disappearing Teams

iainf72

So, Disco down.

Astana likely down

Unibet considering, but why would they hang around?

Quite a few sponsors end in 08.

Will there be half of the current PT teams left by then end of 08?

Are we going to end up with a pile of smaller budget teams with a smaller pool of riders? Like Tinkoff?

vermooten

Hopefully the gazillions of cycling fans' gazes onto cyclists' jerseys will have some value to companies who want to shift their goods and services. Having said that I think it's the sponsorship model that is largely to blame for cycling's current woes. National teams? Boring. Slipstream-type sponsors (nothing to sell)? Rare.

But yeah you're probably right, there'll be less money around for a while, maybe not necessarily such a bad thing.

top_bhoy

Cycling deserves it....pro cyclists deserve it. No doubt, small and mid size Spanish and Italian companies will step up but if cycling wants to start attracting the larger and corporate companies such as the Coca Colas, Sony, etc of this world, rooting out the cheats has to be THE priority.

cougie

hmmm - i dont like cheating, but cant help but feel cycling gets a rough deal.
I'm sure football teams do similar things.

US Football ? US baseball ? Same thing.

Moose11

cougie wrote:

hmmm - i dont like cheating, but cant help but feel cycling gets a rough deal.
I'm sure football teams do similar things.

US Football ? US baseball ? Same thing.

100%... Cycling deserves more credit for taking the fight on. It tests more than any other sport and isn't afraid to expel it's top riders even when they are right at the top (Landis, Rasmussen).

American Football and Baseball are riddled with steriods but the testing is very lax and worse still the punishment is so light it's not even funny.

top_bhoy

cougie wrote:

hmmm - i dont like cheating, but cant help but feel cycling gets a rough deal.
I'm sure football teams do similar things.

US Football ? US baseball ? Same thing.

Surely it doesn't matter what other sports do? The bottom line is that cycling gets its own inadequacies in order before it can peer 'over the wall' to criticise what other sports are doing.

Do you think that if other sports became clean overnight that cycling would be rid of drugs - I don't think so. If cycling wants to use other sports as an excuse to not take the hard decisions, then it should take the consequences of that ie companies pulling out of cycling sponsorship.

iainf72

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Do you think that if other sports became clean overnight that cycling would be rid of drugs - I don't think so. If cycling wants to use other sports as an excuse to not take the hard decisions, then it should take the consequences of that ie companies pulling out of cycling sponsorship.

On the flipside, if the drug problems in football, rugby, tennis etc were aired publically I think there would be a shift in the thinking about it. If the major sports were openly rife with it then it would just become "one of those things"

If the entire England football team returned a postive for EPO (if football ever gets rich enough to afford the test) would people stop watching?

HippyFergus

iainf72 wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

If the entire England football team returned a postive for EPO (if football ever gets rich enough to afford the test) would people stop watching?

Which reminds me - is there anywhere with an at-a-glance comparison of testing regimes in various sports? Ta.

DaveyL

I thought they tested for EPO at the last World Cup? I could be wrong though. No idea if the domestic leagues do it.

top_bhoy

iainf72 wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Do you think that if other sports became clean overnight that cycling would be rid of drugs - I don't think so. If cycling wants to use other sports as an excuse to not take the hard decisions, then it should take the consequences of that ie companies pulling out of cycling sponsorship.

On the flipside, if the drug problems in football, rugby, tennis etc were aired publically I think there would be a shift in the thinking about it. If the major sports were openly rife with it then it would just become "one of those things"

If the entire England football team returned a postive for EPO (if football ever gets rich enough to afford the test) would people stop watching?

I did consider this and there is an element of truth in what you say but I think the main thing to consider is that people in cycling are too quick to say something along the lines of 'we're bad but so is everyone else' rather than looking at tackling and resolving the difficulties which currently face cycling. Should cycling better to try and fix the problem just now or spend (waste) time and energy simply shouting about the 'other lot? Rightly or wrongly, right now, the public only associate cycling with doping, hence companies disassociating themselves en masse with the sport. That is the issue and I'm not sure about the UCI methods to improve the sports image and kick doping out!!!

iainf72

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Rightly or wrongly, right now, the public only associate cycling with doping, hence companies disassociating themselves en masse with the sport. That is the issue and I'm not sure about the UCI methods to improve the sports image and kick doping out!!!

The UCI are the problem in this mess. They show no leadership and get bogged down with nonsense like the ProTour rather than trying to tackle the problems.

This leads to situations where the biggest race in the world and one that transcends cycling is about to start ignoring the UCI and do things their own way. So we get talk of things like national teams or special selection criteria. And they barely talk to each other. If I was a sponsor I would run a country mile rather than get involved in that. You pay $15m per year to ride the TdF (basically) and if you don't, what's the point? It's fine in the tradtional cycling markets and for fan-boi's like us but the Tour is the only race that gives market pentration beyond the normal cycling fans.

And then even if you do win the Tour, someone comes along and says "ooh, you've been doping" despite the fact you've been cleared by all the relevant authorities. And it could happen to anyone. A good example was me repeating a rumour in a German paper that Cadel Evans worked with Ferrari. Not true but it's out there now.

Doping is a part of the puzzle but I think it's being weilded as a weapon by some.

It's a stinker but the UCI are absolutely to blame. It's not the ASO's fault, it's not the riders fault.

McQuaid - I'm calling you out!

SteveR_100Milers

iainf72 wrote:

Top_Bhoy wrote:

Do you think that if other sports became clean overnight that cycling would be rid of drugs - I don't think so. If cycling wants to use other sports as an excuse to not take the hard decisions, then it should take the consequences of that ie companies pulling out of cycling sponsorship.

On the flipside, if the drug problems in football, rugby, tennis etc were aired publically I think there would be a shift in the thinking about it. If the major sports were openly rife with it then it would just become "one of those things"

If the entire England football team returned a postive for EPO (if football ever gets rich enough to afford the test) would people stop watching?

Question is would this enable to easily win the next major international tournament?

iainf72

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

If the entire England football team returned a postive for EPO (if football ever gets rich enough to afford the test) would people stop watching?

Question is would this enable to easily win the next major international tournament?[/quote]

I don't believe there are drugs powerful enough to make that happen.

cougie

I think cycling is sorting out its affairs.

But losing sponsors- is this right ? Why should cycling be blighted when sponsors pour money into other sports that seemingly have no drug problems ?

Seems to me that the best way to keep sponsors is to not have a stringent dope test regime ?

one sick puppy

You're having a laugh! In the 90's riders died through taking EPO, so that they could be seen in the thick end of the races. Is this what you think is a good idea? People putting their lives at risk just to ride a bike and promote laminate flooring? I'm relatively new to cycling and I didn't know that Festina were a watch manufacturer until early this year, but I'd known for a couple of years that they'd sponsored a doped cycling team. Not exactly the best publicity that you can buy is it? If you were looking to promote your company would you take the gamble of sponsoring a cycling team when at the back of your mind there's the possibility that your company's name could be forever associated with a big drugs scandal? I wouldn't. The cycling world has to wake up and smell the coffee; no sponsors = no jobs. Sponsors want good publicity, not to be dragged into the mire of drugs scandals, an the sooner the teams, including doctors and managers realise this, the better.

iainf72

one sick puppy wrote:

You're having a laugh! In the 90's riders died through taking EPO, so that they could be seen in the thick end of the races. Is this what you think is a good idea? People putting their lives at risk just to ride a bike and promote laminate flooring? I'm relatively new to cycling and I didn't know that Festina were a watch manufacturer until early this year, but I'd known for a couple of years that they'd sponsored a doped cycling team. Not exactly the best publicity that you can buy is it? If you were looking to promote your company would you take the gamble of sponsoring a cycling team when at the back of your mind there's the possibility that your company's name could be forever associated with a big drugs scandal? I wouldn't. The cycling world has to wake up and smell the coffee; no sponsors = no jobs. Sponsors want good publicity, not to be dragged into the mire of drugs scandals, an the sooner the teams, including doctors and managers realise this, the better.

You'd think it would work like that, but it doesn't.

Phonak's sales went up even with all of their drug problems.

Festina too made out pretty well from it.

Sponsors want coverage - They want to be in the biggest races, on TV and hopefully win something. Doping is having an impact on these things but it's not the only problem.

skut

DaveyL wrote:

I thought they tested for EPO at the last World Cup? I could be wrong though. No idea if the domestic leagues do it.

According some posters on the old forum this is why certain England players "could hardly pull their shorts on" during the last world cup, despite bouncing around like jack-in-the-boxes for the entire premiership season.

Kléber

iainf72 wrote:

You'd think it would work like that, but it doesn't.

Phonak's sales went up even with all of their drug problems.

Festina too made out pretty well from it.

Sponsors want coverage - They want to be in the biggest races, on TV and hopefully win something. Doping is having an impact on these things but it's not the only problem.

It's hard to separate the good work done by positive images and the damage done by scandalous stories. To put it another way, maybe someone might recognise the Phonak brand but when the day comes to pick a hearing aid, everything else being equal will the pick the brand that cheats or the brand that can be relied on?

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

It's hard to separate the good work done by positive images and the damage done by scandalous stories. To put it another way, maybe someone might recognise the Phonak brand but when the day comes to pick a hearing aid, everything else being equal will the pick the brand that cheats or the brand that can be relied on?

Ahhh, but ultimately, the cycling team aren't representative of "the phonak lifestyle", are they? The only brand of hearing aid I know is Phonak, so in that respect, job done.

RichN95.

Kléber wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

You'd think it would work like that, but it doesn't.

Phonak's sales went up even with all of their drug problems.

Festina too made out pretty well from it.

Sponsors want coverage - They want to be in the biggest races, on TV and hopefully win something. Doping is having an impact on these things but it's not the only problem.

It's hard to separate the good work done by positive images and the damage done by scandalous stories. To put it another way, maybe someone might recognise the Phonak brand but when the day comes to pick a hearing aid, everything else being equal will the pick the brand that cheats or the brand that can be relied on?

The Festina Affair caused a 25% increase in sales of Festina watches

See: http://www.iht.com/articles/2004/01/26/bike_ed3__4.php

SteveR_100Milers

See it's all really a conspiracy theory: as they say, there is no such thing as bad publicity, so its in the sponsors interests to keep cheating in the headlines, to drip feed (pardon the pun) these drug related confessions / positive test results etc. For example, chucking Ras out of the tour, what a fabulous PR stroke of genius that was, after all how else would the tour get into the tabloids once it had left these shores...

How interesting it will be to watch the UCI / WADA and ASO to agree on a limit of "riding too fast to be believable"