Discovery / Tailwind to announce end of team today

bipedal

Kléber wrote:

Bruyneel had a good team. I mean he had willing sponsors with deep pockets, not some Belgian biscuit company. He had a big support staff and plenty of riders on his books who riding clean could beat plenty of other clean riders too.

He should have introduced a testing regime like CSC, a few thousand dollars a year to appoint an independent expert or a panel of boffins to review the data from the blood tests and the sponsors would be falling over each other to back him.

Instead, he chose to follow the short cuts to publicity, to let his riders associate with Doctor Ferrari, to sign riders shunned by everyone else only to be forced to sack them when the heat became too much, to blacklist journalists who asked questions he didn't like, to clam up when asked about his past whilst others were confessing their failures. If you build up a secretive and furtive reputation, no wonder risk-averse companies will run a mile.

Here's hoping Vaughters can have the last laugh and sign a couple more riders who don't need "25 injections a day"...

Couldn't agree more: they screwed themselves

iainf72

bipedal wrote:

Couldn't agree more: they screwed themselves

Wrong.

T-Mobile. Saiz and CSC screwed them by getting their silly backsides bust in Puerto. If that hadn't happened things would be ticking along nicely now.

T-Mobile and CSC got royally bust so had to be shown to be doing something, hence new measures. If Discovery had done similar, that would be admitting they had a problem and couldn't do that.

Kléber

Yes but everyone has been exposed now. Past practices are no secret now.

Discovery signed Basso. Even today Contador assembled journalists, he gave a speech but refused to take a single question from a journalist. He might as well have emailed and faxed his statement. I can imagine some irked journalists who have flown across Europe to make the press conference, only to get a tiny statement that might as well have been read by a speak-your-weight set of bathroom scales.

Until Bruyneel, his entourage and his riders talk openly about the sport and condemn doping, until they introduce a doping-control scheme (even if it's a stunt) people will keep asking questions. So far, they can't answer a question.

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

Until Bruyneel, his entourage and his riders talk openly about the sport and condemn doping, until they introduce a doping-control scheme (even if it's a stunt) people will keep asking questions. So far, they can't answer a question.

Turning it around, who has?

thatlondon

T-Mobile and CSC got royally bust so had to be shown to be doing something, hence new measures.

Ahem what about Sinkewitz he slipped through the net. T-mobile are good at talking about anti-doping measures but they don't seem to be too good at carrying them out.

Kléber

You can't lock these riders in a camp. Just as prisons are full of heroin users, those riders who want to cheat will find ways to beat the system.

What's important is to tighten up the regime, to assure those who play by the rules that they will be rewarded if they work hard and to educate riders about training methods. I know T-Mobile isn't a charity, they want publicity and the riders have to slog hard for this, but at least a sponsor is stepping in to do as much as it practically can.

bipedal

iainf72 wrote:

bipedal wrote:

Couldn't agree more: they screwed themselves

Wrong.

T-Mobile. Saiz and CSC screwed them by getting their silly backsides bust in Puerto. If that hadn't happened things would be ticking along nicely now.

T-Mobile and CSC got royally bust so had to be shown to be doing something, hence new measures. If Discovery had done similar, that would be admitting they had a problem and couldn't do that.

by acting like Puerto never happened Discovery have shot themselves in the foot... they don't have a sponsor because they hired implicated riders, no one forced them: they screwed themselves

iainf72

Kléber wrote:

I know T-Mobile isn't a charity, they want publicity and the riders have to slog hard for this, but at least a sponsor is stepping in to do as much as it practically can.

Like when they cleaned house and kept a DS who didn't admit EPO usage and doctors who dished out the gear in the 90's on board? If you're going to be high and mighty, a good first step is to make sure no skeletons are going to bound out of cupboards.

Did they do no checks or was it just hollow words?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

iainf72

bipedal wrote:

by acting like Puerto never happened Discovery have shot themselves in the foot... they don't have a sponsor because they hired implicated riders, no one forced them: they screwed themselves

But they're not getting a sponsor not because they're Team Bruyneel or signed Basso.

They're not getting a sponsor because cycling is up poop creek.

Because of T-Mobile / CSC / Saiz.

If T-Mobile pulled out, do you think that team would survive or get another sponsor?

andrewgturnbull

iainf72 wrote:

bipedal wrote:

by acting like Puerto never happened Discovery have shot themselves in the foot... they don't have a sponsor because they hired implicated riders, no one forced them: they screwed themselves

But they're not getting a sponsor not because they're Team Bruyneel or signed Basso.

They're not getting a sponsor because cycling is up poop creek.

Because of T-Mobile / CSC / Saiz.

If T-Mobile pulled out, do you think that team would survive or get another sponsor?

Yeah, but.

Bruyneel did have the opportunity to go the same way Team Slipstream have gone and pin their hearts to the anti-doping crusade. They were actually in a good position to do so, as despite all the rumour and innuendo Discovery have an excellent record when it comes to riders failing dope tests.

It seems to me that Discovery/USP had a winning strategy that's worked for the last 10 years, so they preferred to stick with it.

The money is there - as Slipsteam will hopefully prove, albeit on a slightly smaller scale. Perhaps there is only ever room/money for one US team in Europe, 7-11, Motorola, USP, Disco now maybe Slipstream?

Cheers, Andy

andyp

The party can start - it seems it's official now.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... aug10news3

Hincapie seems to be heading for T-Mobile. Iain may have more reason to suspect them next year if Big George is seen dropping the best climbers in the world in the Tour.

jimmythecuckoo

It will be fascinating to see where Contador ends up now won't it?!

LangerDan

Eurostar wrote:

I really hope the ACE knows its onions and brings a bit of corporate American efficiency to the mess that pro cycling is in. It will be interesting to see what happens when they catch someone. For the moment the ACE are superclean because they haven't cocked up yet and we know naff all about them or their procedures. Do they have the money, people, organisation, contacts, influence, crediblity or power to supervise a...God forbid...Spanish team?

Looking at the ACE website doesn't exactly give me a warm, fuzzy feeling. The board has Chief Executive, Operating and Financial Officers and VPs for marketing and corporate development but apparently no professional ethicist, which is peculiar for the Agency for Cycling Ethics. You could infer that someone realised that there is a lot of money to be gained in establishing an "independent" body that charges up to $20,000 per athlete per year in testing. Its the type of approach that could equally be operated by MBAs or sports doctors. If I were to be (even more) cynical, the best business model for such a group is not to make sure that their clients are clean but that they do not get caught.

One of the quandaries with ACE in particular is the realtionship between Vaughters and Andreu. Its funny to see how some people fully accept the veracity of the infamous IM conversation between them when it casts doubts upon LA and Disco (neither of whom were participants in the conversation) yet refuse to accept the implications for Frankie and Jonathan,i.e. that they are effectively admitting to doping themselves. Roll on several years and one is director of a commercial organisation who are ensuring that a team run by the other participant is clean.

iainf72

andyp wrote:

The party can start - it seems it's official now.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... aug10news3

Hincapie seems to be heading for T-Mobile. Iain may have more reason to suspect them next year if Big George is seen dropping the best climbers in the world in the Tour.

What if Big George is better at T-Mobile?

Balls - Like George, hate those pink wearing morons.

Difficult situation.

iainf72

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

It will be fascinating to see where Contador ends up now won't it?!

So you're suggesting no one should hire the winner of the Tour de France?

Kléber

LangerDan wrote:

If I were to be (even more) cynical, the best business model for such a group is not to make sure that their clients are clean but that they do not get caught.

That's hilarious and saddening at the same time. On the one hand, they'll want a trophy to hang on the wall but since Vaughters is paying them, if he got fed up with them, he could turn of the tap.

LangerDan wrote:

Its funny to see how some people fully accept the veracity of the infamous IM conversation between them when it casts doubts upon LA and Disco (neither of whom were participants in the conversation) yet refuse to accept the implications for Frankie and Jonathan,i.e. that they are effectively admitting to doping themselves.

What people did in the past was obvious. The difference now is in being able to admit it today, not to live in denial. Still, I don't think Vaughters has made any admissions to date. :roll:

For a team promising openness, he's very cagey.

drenkrom

If you're involved in US cycling and earn a living from it, you do not come out and admit to doping to help Lance Armstrong. Period. That is the most commercially suicidal proposition there is in US cycling. From across the pond, you don't seem to grasp just how huge LA is on this continent. Lance Armstrong IS North American cycling and if he wants you out, you are out. I hope the death of "his" team will take some of that influence away, but wouldn't count on it too much. Vaughters has hinted to his not-so-clean past before, but coming out altogether would probably mean the death of Slipstream in the long run, which would be no good to anyone.

After this news, though, JV must be working the phones like crazy today. Lots of good riders up for grabs.

thatlondon

After this news, though, JV must be working the phones like crazy today. Lots of good riders up for grabs.

I thought it was a clean team

iainf72

[quote="andrewgturnbullBruyneel did have the opportunity to go the same way Team Slipstream have gone and pin their hearts to the anti-doping crusade. They were actually in a good position to do so, as despite all the rumour and innuendo Discovery have an excellent record when it comes to riders failing dope tests.
[/quote]

Yeah but

If you have no problem on your team why would you implement something like that?

It makes no sense - Why spend $200,000 on a non-problem?

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

Yeah but

If you have no problem on your team why would you implement something like that?

It makes no sense - Why spend $200,000 on a non-problem?

To convince potential future sponsors that there is no problem? Would seem, on today's news, to have been money well spent.

But if they had then I bet they wouldn't have placed two riders on the podium in Paris...

iainf72

andyp wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Yeah but

If you have no problem on your team why would you implement something like that?

It makes no sense - Why spend $200,000 on a non-problem?

To convince potential future sponsors that there is no problem? Would seem, on today's news, to have been money well spent.

But if they had then I bet they wouldn't have placed two riders on the podium in Paris...

And the the failure of the T-Mobile system would make potential sponsors think the Disco version didn't work.

I don't think there are many people who are going to front the cash at the moment. For anyone.

lateralus

Le Monde reports that Bruyneel announced at the press conference that he is retiring from the world of cycling. Apparently one more Tour win after Lance was enough, adn he feels he's achieved all there is to achieve...

bipedal

my bet is that Bruyneel will hit the corporate lecture circuit like the fella that used to manage the Australian cricket team... telling people in suits how to motivate other people in suits is doubtless better paid and easier than managing a cycling team in the current environment

espoir

So who goes where?

Hincapie - T-Mobile

Popo - Milram or Lampre

Contador - Saunier Duval

Devolder - CSC

Brajkovic - Rabobank

Danielson - Back to Oblivion

LangerDan

Todays comment from Armstong really got on my t!ts!


Armstrong said: 'I do not think you have seen the last of this organisation in the sport but clearly things need to improve on many levels, with a more unified front, before you would see us venture back into cycling.'

Which, in as far as it goes, is fine but its like crapping on the floor and then whingeing about the smell.

Bye Lance, don't let the door hit you on the ass on the way out.

schlepcycling

thatlondon wrote:

I'm a big fan of Miller, he was sucked into the doping culture, made his mistakes admitted he did the wrong thing and has done a great job to get back and race well.

Millar only admitted it after he'd been held by French police and questioned about syringes containing EPO that were found in his apartment. Then he tried the 'it's everyone's fault but mine' defence, he blamed the teams, the sponsors, the media, everybody he NEVER once said 'no one forced me to get a big fat syringe of dope and stick it in my arm, because I wanted to win'. I get a bit sick of this Millar was dragged into the world of doping because of EVIL cycling and he didn't know what he was doing .....cobblers...he knew enough to take EPO in order to win the World's TT. :evil: :evil:

sorry rant over!

iainf72

espoir wrote:

So who goes where?

Danielson - Back to Oblivion

Bet he wins something big now.

And Popo has already been talking to OlegTinkov.

LangerDan

iainf72 wrote:

And Popo has already been talking to OlegTinkov.

I'd heard that too. Apparently Oleg needs a new kitchen porter for one of his restaurants....

Kléber

schlepcycling wrote:

Millar only admitted it after he'd been held by French police and questioned about syringes containing EPO that were found in his apartment. Then he tried the 'it's everyone's fault but mine' defence, he blamed the teams, the sponsors, the media, everybody he NEVER once said 'no one forced me to get a big fat syringe of dope and stick it in my arm, because I wanted to win'!

Almost everyone was doing it. It's like driving at the speed limit, most people when they drive might go over the limit, maybe do 33mph in a 30 zone, or 75 on a motorway.

He can be sanctimonious at times, Saunier Duval's team sponsor MET should name a new helmet after him, the Halo. But at least the guy talks about it today and condemns cheats. More than can be said of most others.

moray_gub

andyp wrote:

The party can start - it seems it's official now.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... aug10news3


That the team which won eight Tours can not find a sponsor bodes poorly for the sport in general.

Rather than take some kind of pleasure as some are doing about people being made redundant i think the above comment is worrying for the future of Pro Tour level sponsorship

cheers
MG