Kashechkin

iainf72

ContrelaMontre wrote:

Out of interest, which lab conducted the test? I hope it's not Chatenay-Malabry just because then all the conspiracy theorists can quieten down a bit.

B text positive etc. I personally will believe any accredited lab, it's just I know the riders/lawyers who get caught don't seem to trust C-M.

I can't wait for the DNA test to show it was Kash in Vino and Vino in Kash so to speak.

Vino's was done at C-M for sure. They've recently learnt how to perform the test.

I don't believe they'd do a DNA test.

Kléber

ContrelaMontre wrote:

I can't wait for the DNA test to show it was Kash in Vino and Vino in Kash so to speak.

So far it's been "In Vino non veritas"

ContrelaMontre

iainf72 wrote:

I don't believe they'd do a DNA test.

I know, but it'd be good if they did!

DaveyL

When Vino tested positive for a homologous blood transfusion, the first thing the UCI should have done was to test every other rider on the team - not let them all withdraw from the race and disappear. Surely an autologous transfusion would be much safer and offer less chance of detection; so one would have to conclude there was a mix-up of blood bags and Vino got someone else's. Nailing another rider on the team for the same thing should have been a no-brainer at the time - it would have been very strong evidence of a systematic team blood-doping programme.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Perhaps that's the way to go in future - one fail, all tested.

BigSpecs

iainf72 wrote:

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

What does the panel think - are we seeing the first real signs that the UCI are taking their role seriously and that a turn-around in cyclings image might be possible in the long run? Are we likely to see some racing we can all believe in during 2008?

Ok, here's a question. Do you think Astana were clean in the Dauphine where they looked like a bunch of robots?

The answer would need to be no, and they didn't get caught there. They made a mistake and got caught. So it's not like the tests worked better or anything, they just got lucky.

The techniques for avoiding positives are still more advanced than the tests I feel. If you have a look at that link Andyp posted last night to the blood doping analysis of the last 10 years, it goes in a cycle - The numbers are dropping off now because people are not sure they can get away with it, but as soon as someone works out how to play the system, I bet the numbers will go back up again.

However, I think they helped their luck by targetting specific people so that might be a good tactic. See Mayo as well.

I have to agree with Iain on this one. The simple fact (and an often overlooked one) is that the tests still do not work (unless there is a cock up of "Carry On" proportions as there seems to have been here)

Take Rasmussen for example. Here you have a rider who has spent most of the year avoiding controls (one assumes because he was doping) then rides everyone off his wheel at the Tour (so the dope was working) takes 14 ? controls/ tests and doesn't fail a single one! Just to add iceing to the cake his own team is so sure that he is doping (maybe they knew for definite?) they threw him off the race.

As I say, the tests don't work...unfortunately.

DaveyL

The tests don't work? I think Vino, Kash, Kessler, Mayo, Moreni and SInkewitz might disagree...

iainf72

DaveyL wrote:

The tests don't work? I think Vino, Kash, Kessler, Mayo, Moreni and SInkewitz might disagree...

Because they only doped, on that one day, eh?

Technically, the tests work, but they're so easy to evade etc. If I was a pro cyclist I wouldn't be afraid of no dope tests [*]

* - If I had a good doctor

DaveyL

'course not, but the fact that so many top riders have been caught in such a short space of time is unprecedented, as far as I'm aware. Especially if that "20% doped during the Tour" figure is correct, then they have nabbed a fair percentage of the cheats in one 3 week event.

The UCI has certainly had a change of strategy. They seem to have identified a list of questionable riders and are pursuing them with vigour. People on this forum were speculating as to who the "men in black" were, and it looks like the UCI are picking them off one-by-one. If they really are serious about cleaning up the sport, we should expect the testing regime to get even smarter and more "intelligence-led" in future.

Like in every aspect of life, the cheats are often one step ahead of the systems put in place to catch them, but with focussed smart testing as part of the solution, combined with a change in culture of both riders and teams, and immense commercial pressure for teams to race clean, I hope things will move in the right direction.

timoid.

DaveyL wrote:

Especially if that "20% doped during the Tour" figure is correct, then they have nabbed a fair percentage of the cheats in one 3 week event.

4 positive tests* is not that high a rate over 3 weeks. And of those two were due to mixing up the blood bags rather than being caught properly. That's less than 10% of the estimated 49.5 (1/4 of 198) dopers in this years Tour. Hardly worth hallooing about as it means that at least 92% of dopers get away with it.


*Sinkewitz was a test conducted in April/May, Rasmussen has not tested positive.

DaveyL

Someone should tell Vino and Kash that they can get back to racing as they weren't "caught properly", and Rasmussen too... I'm not saying it's something we should be celebrating, but even that success rate you quote is far better than ever before - or am I wrong, has there been an event where more riders have been done?

I have a feeling the UCI have gone a bit "Untouchables" recently and have decided to get their men whichever way they can. By hook or by crook, 6 suspect riders were booted either during or just after the Tour.

It's a bit naive to believe the new testing regime will catch everyone in the space of a few days, but it looks to me like things are moving in the right direction.

LangerDan

I believe the big difference is the number of tests that are being performed. Much of the doping is only detectable for a short period after administration. By targetting specific riders and perfoming more frequents tests, the chances of detection are much higher. In his recent Eurosport interview, McQuaid said that they have carried out more out-of-competition tests (~ 180) in June this year than in all of 2006.

dave_1

I remember on the Col Du Aubisque during the 2005 TDF, Kaschekin got battered by a spectator with one of these inflatable things that the promotional TDF caravan pass out for advertising...i recall Kash wasn´t too happy...., but IMO he does indeed deserve a hard slap like that for being such a cheat

Kléber

LangerDan wrote:

I believe the big difference is the number of tests that are being performed. Much of the doping is only detectable for a short period after administration. By targetting specific riders and perfoming more frequents tests, the chances of detection are much higher. In his recent Eurosport interview, McQuaid said that they have carried out more out-of-competition tests (~ 180) in June this year than in all of 2006.

One small thing, the doping problem isn't new so just don't give the likes of McQuaid any credit for this. For years, McQuaid and his svengali Hein Verbruggen did little to stop doping, spending much of their time instead trying to create the roaring failure that is the UCI Pro Tour or trying to make the UCI the governing body for skateboarding.

That they're testing more is good but all this could have been done a decade ago.

TheBigOne

heh - Nah, I think things are improving, slowly.

80% on EPO 10 years ago to probably around 25% now. Not bad.

yup, it's prob about 25% on EPO now, infact, it's prob less than that....

why?

Cause there's new kids on the block that are far more effective than EPO.

Have any of you ever heard of RSR-13?

In a nutshell it:

- increases the size of the RBC.
- increase the oxygen carrying capacity.
- increases the efficiency of the movement on oxygen from the RBC into the muscles.

Here's what the makers say about it...

www.allos.com: "Allos' lead drug under development is RSR13. RSR13 is a synthetic small molecule that increases the release of oxygen from hemoglobin, the oxygen carrying protein contained within red blood cells."

Coincidently enough it has been developed as a cancer 'therepy' in Colorado, US....

Those of you who also like to talk about VO2 Maxs and such...... would it surprise you if i told you that RSR-13 also INCREASES your VO2 Max.... now wouldn't that be useful to a Pro cyclist, espeically one who has ambitions to become 'top of the game'... and also a far more likely reason for success than say... weight loss, or perhaps a 'change in cadence style...?!

RSR13 (2-[4-[[(3,5-dimethylanilino)carbonyl]methyl]phenoxyl]-2-methylpropionic acid) is a synthetic allosteric modifier of hemoglobin that is currently in a phase III clinical trial as a radio-enhancing agent. RSR13 has been shown to increase maximum oxygen uptake (VO2max) in a canine skeletal model, which makes it a potential performance-enhancing agent for endurance athletes, since VO2max is an index of aerobic capacity.

You can find the full research doc here - http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi- ... 1&SRETRY=0

Wait for the floodgates to open.

iainf72

TheBigOne wrote:

Cause there's new kids on the block that are far more effective than EPO.

Have any of you ever heard of RSR-13?

In a nutshell it:

- increases the size of the RBC.
- increase the oxygen carrying capacity.
- increases the efficiency of the movement on oxygen from the RBC into the muscles.

It was being used in the Giro in 2001 apparantly.

It is tested for now and by the sounds of things, a lot easier to find than EPO.

TheBigOne

yup, it is tested for now...

but with a careful 'schedule' that means jack.

From what i have heard it is more effective than EPO, but harder to get your hands on, i guess that makes its the 'doping conisseurs' choice....

jerry3571

I think Jesus Manzano had a bit of blood that wasn't his type; he wasn't too happy about it after a long stay in Hospital.
I watched the Tour de Suisse and Astana were looking for a fall; they were just too good.
The odd thing on that race is where Kash lost his leaders jersey. He was riding just before the last climb of the day, on one of the last stages; a very important stage. They were approaching the climb and just at the bottom, good ole Kash fancied a pee. Did he do the decent thing and try a mobile pee, "no" he stopped for a minute or two and emptied his bladder on the side of the road. Afterwards, he made a super human effort to catch the lead group where his legs fell off. You would have thought that after thousands of miles of training, the drugs and fancy equipment, he would've emptied his bladder at a better time. The only guy I've seen stop at the bottom of a climb, for any reason, was Pantani at the Giro where he punctured at the bottom of the last climb of the day. The peleton came past and on his own he passed every rider who themselves were on the ragged edge. He won of course. One of the craziest stages I have ever seen.
Also the Kloden riding for Vino when Vino was going backwards at the Tour. Strange tactics indeed.
Cheers Jerry

Kléber

I hate this. You follow cycling and end up with a knowledge of haematology and certain pharmaceutical products that have no relevance to you. You end up not knowing what size chainrings a pro likes for the mountains but you know his blood group. It's awful.

iainf72

Wow. So the Vuelta funed a bunch of out of competition tests and that's how they got Kash.

Interesting (thanks Velonews)

--

Andrey Kashechkin - the Astana rider popped for alleged homologous blood doping two weeks ago - was caught with tests financed by Vuelta a España organizers.

The Vuelta earmarked some 180,000 euros (about $250,000) to carry out an estimated 80 surprise anti-doping controls ahead of the season's third grand tour. According to the Spanish sports daily AS, that money was used to track down and test Kashechkin.

Last year's third-place Vuelta podium-man was located in the remote Turkish town of Belek (Astana team manager Marc Biver admitted he didn't know where the Kazakh rider was) and he tested positive for banned blood transfusions, AS reported.

Vuelta officials have since told Astana that the team is no longer welcome at the September 1 start. Defending Vuelta champion Alexandre Vinokourov also tested positive for homologous blood doping during last month's Tour de France.