from lance to landis book
Comments
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I've read it.
But I've also read LA Confidential so there wasn't much new.
It's well written and I felt started off quite sympathetic, explaining what it was like being a pro in the 90's and being kiled by the Italians. Then it turns into a bit of a hatchet job
There are a number of problems with it though - Walsh tends to skip over things if they don't support his arguments or if he can't explain them.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
David "Armstrong baiter" Walsh book in english about Armstrong, Hamilton and Landis's alledged dodgy practises used to win races.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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I'm almost finished this book and I'm not particularly impressed. In my opinion Walsh has written a book that attempts to make you belive his theory. There is little unbiased evidence and everything appears to be a little once sided.
One of the major arguments in the case of Armstrong doping is the aledged Hotel room conversation, where Armstrong aledgedly confessed to doping to two doctors and infront of 5 or so friends. This is when he was undergoing cancer treatment before his first tour win. The doctors asked him if he has ever taken performance enhancing drugs (what the relevancy to his treatment this is Walsh does not explain). Armstrong aledges to have said he took Testosterone, rEPO, etc infront of 5 of his friends.
If that was me and I had been asked the same question I would say No, then later in private confess to the doctor. Armstrong has spent most of his career vehemently dening his use of drugs why would he openly admit it there?
The other thing is that in the court case between the company that took the contract to pay his bonus if he won in 94 and Armstrong. Betty Andreu and others who were aledged to be in the room were summoned to testify, however the two doctor were not, nor were his medical records obtained?
Again this alleged confession took place before his first tour win, the company responsible who were to pay his bonus were trying to prove that if he had a history of drug use then when the initial contract was taken it would have been more expensive or they would not have taken it at all. They were not trying to prove that Armstrong had used drugs during his tour victories but trying to get out of paying the $5 million dollar bonus for winning in 94.
This however is an insightful and interesting book about doping in cycle racing, it is by far boring, just don't believe everything you read.[/code]0 -
i believe the IM chat between JV and Franki speaks volumes.0
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Who said what on there then?0
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TheBigOne wrote:i believe the IM chat between JV and Franki speaks volumes.
I agree it is interesting if it is true, but there are no sources and no mention of where this conversation took place or how the information was obtained.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis ... ssage.html0 -
thatlondon wrote:TheBigOne wrote:i believe the IM chat between JV and Franki speaks volumes.
I agree it is interesting if it is true, but there are no sources and no mention of where this conversation took place or how the information was obtained.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/landis ... ssage.html
Surely not the Frankie Andreu now gainfully employed by ProCycling as their bike tester.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
The same Andreu who runs this: http://www.agencyforcyclingethics.com/
I like the way Vaughters refers to "hot sauce", ironic given his sponsor is a Mexican restaurant chain.0 -
skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:Who said what on there then?
Some extracts from the book below. By the way this instant messenger conversation came to light when it was subpoenaed in the SCA/ Armstrong hearing.
As might be expected, after pressure (threats?) from Armstrong Vaughters has said that he has no proof that what was true, but it is clear from the transcript that he believed what he was saying at the time. After all, why would he make such things up? Also, in relation to stating what Landis told him about the refrigerated panniers on the bike used to transport blood, he has simply said that he regrets stating this when it was told to him in confidence. (Again, why would Landis have lied about such a thing to Vaughters?). The fact that no one ever thought that this conversation would ever reach the public domain supports, not undermines, the assumption that the riders were talking about events they believed to be true. It also says volumes that such 'rumour's were circulating about team 'Disco' in the first place!
VAUGHTERS: Anyhow, I can never quite figure out why I don't just play along with the Lance crowd. I mean sh-it it would make my life easier, Eh? It's not like I never played with hotsauce. Eh? ...
VAUGHTERS: Once I went to CA and saw that now not all the teams get 25 injections every day, I felt really guilty. Hell, CA was ZERO.
ANDREAU: You mean all the riders?
VAUGHTERS: Credit Agricole
ANDREAU; It's crazy
VAUGHTERS: So, I realised Lance was full of sh-it when he'd said everyone was doing it.
ANDREAU: You may read stuff I say to radio or press, praising the Tour and Lance but it's just playing the game.
VAUGHTERS; Believe me, as crazy as it sounds- Moreau was on nothing. Hct of 39%
"VAUGHTERS: yeah, it's very complex how [to] avoid all the controls now, but it's not a new dr-ug or anything, just the resources and planning to pull off a well devised plan. It's why they all got dropped on stage 9- no refill yet-then on the rest day-boom 800ml of packed cells.
ANDREAU: They have it mastered. Good point.
VAUGHTERS: They draw the blood right after the Dauphine.
ANDREAU: How do they sneak it in, or keep in until needed. I'm sure it's not with the truck in the frig.
VAUGHTERS; Motorcycle- refrigerated panniers on the rest day. Floyd has a photo of the thing.
ANDREAU: Crazy, it just keeps going to new levels.
VAUGHTERS: Yeah, it's complicated, but with enough money you can do it."
VAUGHTERS: Anyhow- I just feel sorry for Floyd and some of the other guys. Why would lance keep doing the sh-it when he clearly has nothing to prove- it's weird.
ANDREAU: I know. Me too. They all get ripped into for no reason. He's done now, thank god, but they will prove next year for Johan's sake that they are the greatest.
VAUGHTERS: And then Lance says 'this guy and that guy are pussies."
ANDREAU: They wont stop. I agree.
VAUGHTERS: Then I've got tiger as one of my sponsors, and he loves to pick my mind… what do you say?
ANDREAU: You play dumb. You can't talk with them about this stuff. I think they would freak.
VAUGHTERS: Yeah, that's tough- I do, but it's tough, maybe they should freak…0 -
and heres JV's reply...
Contacted by Cyclingnews about his statements, Vaughters admitted that the IM conversation had taken place, but said that everything he had said was based on rumours rather than facts. "It was a gossipy conversation between two people," he said. "There's nothing in it that I could prove in court, just stuff I'd heard." The conversation had been printed out by Frankie Andreu's wife and submitted to the SCA arbitration, according to Vaughters.
Vaughters said he could not be sure if Floyd Landis really had photographs of the alleged doping practices. "I regret saying Floyd said anything to me in that IM because it was a friend of Floyd's," he continued. "In fact, everything I wrote in that IM was something I heard from somewhere else."dont knock on death\'s door.....
Ring the bell and leg it...that really pi**es him off....0 -
VAUGHTERS: Once I went to CA and saw that now not all the teams get 25 injections every day, I felt really guilty. Hell, CA was ZERO.
Doesn't sound like gossip to me. Sounds like someone used to having 25 injections a day and being surprised that another team has none.
Like many others he's scared of Armstrong.It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.0 -
Kléber wrote:The same Andreu who runs this: http://www.agencyforcyclingethics.com/
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....who are the group responsible for implementing the enhanced drug testing programme for Vaughter's squad.'This week I 'ave been mostly been climbing like Basso - Shirley Basso.'0 -
andyp wrote:
I think it's Armstrong's legal team that scares people...Timoid. wrote:Doesn't sound like gossip to me. Sounds like someone used to having 25 injections a day and being surprised that another team has none.
Like many others he's scared of Armstrong.
Strange that given that the defamation laws tend to stack up against plaintiffs in the USA, as opposed to the opposite case in the UK. This is due to First Amendment legislation. He backed down because he couldn't substantiate the claims, simple common sense, nothing to do with legal bullying.0 -
well, now I'm over half way through the book. All I can say is any fan of Armstrong should read it - he shouldn't have any fans. A nasty piece of work who also happened to like dealing with certain doctors for that final winning formula!0
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speedbump wrote:well, now I'm over half way through the book. All I can say is any fan of Armstrong should read it - he shouldn't have any fans. A nasty piece of work who also happened to like dealing with certain doctors for that final winning formula!
But then thats just one side of the story/argument! I'm sure theres books out there countering that.0 -
Yeh, written by Lance himself (or his ghost writer)!0
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Is it available in the UK, this book? sounds a fascinating read.0
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speedbump wrote:Yeh, written by Lance himself (or his ghost writer)!
He did respond
http://www.thepaceline.com/freeforallitem.aspx?cid=3312Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0 -
speedbump wrote:Yeh, written by Lance himself (or his ghost writer)!
Still, it's the other end of the argument. Both sides must be considered and understood before making a judgment. at least thats what I learnt in history!! I'm not saying the book isn't good and interesting, it sounds like a very good read, dont get me wrong.0 -
Before I read this book I thought Lance was clean (don't know why, just how I saw things). After reading it and the responses by Lance I'm about 80% sure he doped in some way. I can get hold of this imported book for anyone in the UK who can't locate a copy.0
