Horrible cycling

janm399

I saw pretty awful cycling on my way to work today. A guy on an MTB with slick tyres and Look road pedals was weaving in and out of traffic, cutting just in front of buses and cars on rather busy Oxford road in Manchester. Every time I stopped at red lights, he whizzed on my left, luckily, he turned away from my path in Rusholme.

Whoever you are, your riding was dangerous and was exactly the reason why some drivers don't particularly like cyclists. I'd ask you to stop riding like that, to think about others and think about not injuring yourself, but you wouldn't listen anyway.

Disillusioned Jan

Niland

Not really
I stop at red lights, cycle consideratly at all times etc. And today I was rewarded by being side swiped by a taxi who didn't even stop to see if I was seriously injured (I wasn't just a small bruise on my knee and a locked up rear brake on my bike).

I'm fed up with people pointing the blame at cyclists. I don't care if they jump reds, weave in and out or whatever, motorists are the ones causing accidents and deaths not cyclists.

janm399

I have to disagree: sometimes it is the cyclist to blame. If you cut in front of a full bus and then expect the bus to immediately slow down to your speed, you're just asking for an accident to happen.

If you're driving 10 tons of metal at 50 km/h, you simply cannot slow down to 30 km/h in a second it would take to react to some crazy cycling.

Yes, I've experienced my share of bad driving, but it doesn't mean that it justifies bad cycling as well.

Niland

I know, I'm just pissed off right now because of the incident. Although I do have to say cyclists need to stand up for themselves a little bit more and stop dragging our heads in shame. As a group cyclists are at fault in an absolutely minute number of road accidents, while motorists are the cause of thousands. The governments figures are: "Some 3,500 people are still killed and another 35,000 seriously injured each year on the roads" I'd like to know how many are CAUSED by cyclists.

Everyday I see more motorists than cyclists jumping red lights. EVERY DAY, not sometimes or occasionally, but every. single. day.

I know I'll probably feel calmer tomorrow but when you start adding up the figures it's a stupid situation. I'll take a moron on a mountain bike over a moron in a mondeo any day.

Hairy Jock

janm399 wrote:

I have to disagree: sometimes it is the cyclist to blame. If you cut in front of a full bus and then expect the bus to immediately slow down to your speed, you're just asking for an accident to happen.

If you're driving 10 tons of metal at 50 km/h, you simply cannot slow down to 30 km/h in a second it would take to react to some crazy cycling.

Yes, I've experienced my share of bad driving, but it doesn't mean that it justifies bad cycling as well.

I agree, everyone should take responsibility for their actions, all road user owe a duty of care to other road users. That is why we have the Highway Code, Cyclecraft etc read them and think about it. There are too many people out there who don't think and aren't willing to take responsibility for their own actions.

Regulator

Niland wrote:

Not really
I stop at red lights, cycle consideratly at all times etc. And today I was rewarded by being side swiped by a taxi who didn't even stop to see if I was seriously injured (I wasn't just a small bruise on my knee and a locked up rear brake on my bike).

I'm fed up with people pointing the blame at cyclists. I don't care if they jump reds, weave in and out or whatever, motorists are the ones causing accidents and deaths not cyclists.

If you have the details of the cab then report it to the police. Failing to stop at the scene of an accident is a serious criminal offence.

OrbitRider

I'm not sure that cyclists are only responsible for a miniscule fraction of road accidents. For crashes between cyclists and motor vehicles, the fault is apportioned as follows:
Cyclist at fault: 25%
Motorist at fault: 57%
Both at fault: 8%
Neither at fault:10%

Source: Pedal Cycle Accidents, RR220, TRRL, 1989, as quoted from CCN website.

This, of course, is only one type of accident, but it does show that cyclists are not quite as innocent as we sometimes make out. There is also the question of injury severity and here it is pretty clear that motor vehicles do a lot more damage than cyclists.

overmars

Niland wrote:

I know, I'm just pissed off right now because of the incident. Although I do have to say cyclists need to stand up for themselves a little bit more and stop dragging our heads in shame. As a group cyclists are at fault in an absolutely minute number of road accidents, while motorists are the cause of thousands. The governments figures are: "Some 3,500 people are still killed and another 35,000 seriously injured each year on the roads" I'd like to know how many are CAUSED by cyclists.

Everyday I see more motorists than cyclists jumping red lights. EVERY DAY, not sometimes or occasionally, but every. single. day.

I know I'll probably feel calmer tomorrow but when you start adding up the figures it's a stupid situation. I'll take a moron on a mountain bike over a moron in a mondeo any day.

When you quote the numbers, everything makes sense. The RLJ is an irritant and a potential accident waiting to happen. But the figures for cyclists RLJ in deaths/accidents hardly make a blip.
Motorised vehicles however...
A day in your travels will not go by without you seeing a car with a big dent in it, and it wasn't done by a cyclist.
And remember there are hundreds of thousands of people who got others to take their driving tests for them and they are on the roads right now.

Hope you feel better.

overmars

Regulator wrote:

Niland wrote:

Not really
I stop at red lights, cycle consideratly at all times etc. And today I was rewarded by being side swiped by a taxi who didn't even stop to see if I was seriously injured (I wasn't just a small bruise on my knee and a locked up rear brake on my bike).

I'm fed up with people pointing the blame at cyclists. I don't care if they jump reds, weave in and out or whatever, motorists are the ones causing accidents and deaths not cyclists.

If you have the details of the cab then report it to the police. Failing to stop at the scene of an accident is a serious criminal offence.

ITA

janm399

Niland, I see your point. Drivers have more possibilities for bullying the cyclists, who -- even if they are in the right -- give way. It is also true that cyclists are almost always the ones who get injured in an accident, it's almost never the driver.
Still, imagine a situation when a driver nearly gets into an accident because of someone's bad cycling. It's very easy then to regard every other cyclist as a threat. That means passing other cyclists dangerously because the driver is afraid that even the other cyclist would do something stupid again. Imagine a driver like that meeting someone riding in primary: they'll think the cyclist is deliberately trying to slow them down and they'll try something dangerous. Now, I know that's not an excuse at all, but we're humans, not machines and don't think logically all the time.

cupofteacp

In the period 1999 to 2005 2 cyclists were killed RLJing out of 120

The biggest killer was vehicles turning left followed by cyclists riding off the pavement into the traffic. What were they thinking

More cyclists are killed by car doors being opened than RLJing, 5

JustRidecp

cupofteacp wrote:

In the period 1999 to 2005 2 cyclists were killed RLJing out of 120

Noy sympathy there, should've stopped at the lights.

I see an incredible amount of daft cyclists on the road - natural deselection.
All cyclists should read Cyclecraft.

helz

You'll have to excuse me, I've just come over from the old cycling forum and I'm just testing to see if I can post on this one :?

helz

Excellent

Sorry, as you were.

iainment

JustRidecp wrote:

cupofteacp wrote:

In the period 1999 to 2005 2 cyclists were killed RLJing out of 120

Noy sympathy there, should've stopped at the lights.

I see an incredible amount of daft cyclists on the road - natural deselection.
All cyclists should read Cyclecraft.

A bit of an OTT reaction methinks.

I've read Cyclecraft btw but still RLJ if the way is clear.

8)

cupofteacp

It amazes me that we're still focusing on the RLJing rather than the left turning cars that killed almost 20 people, and all the other daft behaviour of motorists

Or for that matter if we must persist on blaming the cyclist why the feck are they cycling off the ruddy pavement into the traffic!!!!

But no, RLJing is the most important thing, and this is what I find odd, why? because it annoys motorists. What about the 20 people killed by cars turning left does'nt that annoy anyone?

georgee

had a similarly useless cyclist giving us a bad name last through Fulham thismorning, would of quite like to have seen him get flattened.

On a more serious note I watched someone on the kings road sit on the inside of Range rover signalling left for 100 yards before having to skid to a halt once the 4x4 turned. Obviously if you are in that situation you get well ahead of the car or get back behind them, you have to be frickin suicidal to think they would spot you sat in a blind spot!

I really feel there is no hope for people who act this daftly, as mentioned, natural selection should take it's course!

Hairy Jock

The one major factor which will increase safety of all cyclists, is more cyclists on the roads. The bad behaviour of a few is putting people off trying cycling, just because there are bad drivers out there, and I see them ever day, doesn't mean that you are not responsible for your actions!

Porgy

Regulator wrote:

Niland wrote:

Not really
I stop at red lights, cycle consideratly at all times etc. And today I was rewarded by being side swiped by a taxi who didn't even stop to see if I was seriously injured (I wasn't just a small bruise on my knee and a locked up rear brake on my bike).

I'm fed up with people pointing the blame at cyclists. I don't care if they jump reds, weave in and out or whatever, motorists are the ones causing accidents and deaths not cyclists.

If you have the details of the cab then report it to the police. Failing to stop at the scene of an accident is a serious criminal offence.

I tried that recently in London - I had all the details. I eventually got an admission from Jennie Jones no less that there was nothing that TFL could do, and she admitted that the Police would be too busy to do anything either. So effectively 0- at least in London - the cabs are currently above the law.

Porgy

It's all very well us sitting in judgement over ourselves but for Joe Public who doesn't understand cycling perceptions are different.

I've been heckled for all sorts of "illegal" behaviour that wasn't actually illegal.

I've been attacked for insisting on my right of way when I was in the right legally - but of course, guess what, once the motorist decides their going to ram you anyway - it makes the cyclist look like a hooligan when they react - shouting or hitting vehicle - a natural reaction when a heavy metallic object is pushing you off the road.

I've been shouted at for using contra-flow lanes - for using cycle lanes on pavements, for being in the correct lane on roundabouts. In other words, in the minds of many people cyclists are naturally always in the wrong.

You're pissing in the wind if you think you can change attitudes by obeying the law - I obey the law - it gets me exactly nowhere.

What we need is to defend ourselves thoroughly - I disown the lunatics on bikes - the dangerous ones - who are a danger to themselves more than anyone else. But I'll defend nervous beginners who mount the pavement. And I'll defend the practice of going through certain red lights becasue those lights were designed with motor traffic and with no regard for cyclists.

baudman

Porgy wrote:

What we need is to defend ourselves thoroughly - I disown the lunatics on bikes - the dangerous ones - who are a danger to themselves more than anyone else. But I'll defend nervous beginners who mount the pavement. And I'll defend the practice of going through certain red lights because those lights were designed with motor traffic and with no regard for cyclists.

HERE HERE!

Unfortunately, there's morons in EVERY group/sport/subculture. I reckon if you get any random 3 people together, 1 of them will be a moron.

Tynancp

I see far more cyclists than cars jump lights, cars jump lights while bikes just ride stright through, it's different

and the lawa and courts are naturally biased toward motorists so I'd be careful about statistics apportioning official blame, people swerving onto the road from the pavement make me wince

Niland

Tynancp wrote:

I see far more cyclists than cars jump lights, cars jump lights while bikes just ride stright through, it's different

I guess it depends where and when you ride, personally I see 10-12 taxis go through red lights on every trip through central london.

It is slightly devil's advocate but you could make a case that the way cyclists go through red is a lot safer than the way cars charge through "ambers".

spasypaddy

if its just a pelican crossing and there is noone crossing i will quite happily ride through the red light but any other red light and i stop. RLJ pisses me off no end its so dangerous especially as i cross triple carriageways and stuff. There are only 5 sets of lights on my 6 mile commute but lots of roundabouts, sometimes getting out at the roundabouts is impossible, and lights would make life easier

ddraver

I don't RLJ any more but when i was in london (back next week) i was on the point of starting up again, simply because all the summer cyclists did it and i was 1 in 5 cyclists who stopped, but i still do at pelican crossings i admit

i don't sympathise with the 2 people whm died RLJ-ing, its sad but predictable, However i'm very surprised that they were such a small proportion of the total

Porgy

I hate that whole situation - when traffic lights are about to change and all the vehicles are rushing to get through before they do change. I reckon that's one of the most dangerous times for peds and cyclists. I try to stay out of the way of large metallic boxes on wheels when this happens. I've had a few close calls over the years - not from running red lights but from vehicles rushing through the amber.