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National Teams in the TDF again

skutskut Posts: 371
edited August 2007 in Pro race

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  • skutskut Posts: 371
    This idea isn't to fight against doping, it's to make more people interested in the sport. Cheering on people sponsored by a boiler or pregnancy test kit manufacturer doesn't get people so interested. Taking the commercial element away could make the sport a bit less cut-throat.

    Interestingly, teams from Ukraine or Britain could outclass their French or Dutch rivals. I'd love to see a Colombian team invited.

    But as you say, It's unworkable, after all, having a French team would exclude a lot of French riders, although to counter this, the notion of regional teams has also been touted. And just as the World Champs see riders from different nationalities helping each other because they're on the same team, this could happen in the Tour. Also you can imagine teams like Agritubel or Bouygues going to the wall if their sponsor couldn't get any coverage in July and Barloworld would hardly want to see Soler going to a Colombian team.

    There are perhaps too many arguments against the idea?

    KW - the article actually implies that they are thinking of having national teams from smaller countries alongside trade teams.

    Even more unworkable than just having national teams.
  • ricadusricadus Posts: 2,379
    It would be entertaining watching all the Spanish, Italian and French riders double-crossing each other and falling out though, like when Aitor Gonzales stole the Vuelta from Oscar Sevilla in 2002.

    Getting all the Italian chiefs to work together for just a one day race – i.e. the World Championships – is a major achievement for the team's DS; maintaining that for 3 weeks would be a miracle.
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,129
    I'm with Ricadus - the enjoyment derived from the ongoing squabbling within national teams would be worth it alone. :lol:
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    ricadus wrote:
    It would be entertaining watching all the Spanish, Italian and French riders double-crossing each other and falling out though, like when Aitor Gonzales stole the Vuelta from Oscar Sevilla in 2002.

    Getting all the Italian chiefs to work together for just a one day race – i.e. the World Championships – is a major achievement for the team's DS; maintaining that for 3 weeks would be a miracle.
    :D You hit the nail on the head. Anquetil refused to ride one year because of his fight with Riviere and wouldn't ride in the same team as Bobet either. The Italians have had a fight every year at the Worlds. Merckx and Van Looy were both suspended by the Belgian Federation at the 69 Worlds because Van Looy rode the whole race on Merckx's wheel and when they pulled into the pits they stopped at the same time.
    There's a whole litany of double crosses when it's national teams. The last one our very own Brits Wegelius and another riding for their trade team buddies instead.
    Isn't sport wonderful.
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    This is the Tour de France once again assuming that they run the only bike race in the world. How are sponsors going to feel about handing over 15 million euro over to a team for one year when they then get shunned for the Tour de France?

    It's totally unworkable. What are they even suggesting it for? Is it supposed to combat doping? How?
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    afx237vi wrote:
    This is the Tour de France once again assuming that they run the only bike race in the world. How are sponsors going to feel about handing over 15 million euro over to a team for one year when they then get shunned for the Tour de France?

    It's totally unworkable. What are they even suggesting it for? Is it supposed to combat doping? How?
    Agree 100%. It's the best formula for making it an amateur sport. The TdF's the biggest race with the most publicity, so team sponsors aint going to dish out a load of money for publicity just in the classics, which get hardly any compared to the Tour. Absolutely ludicrous.
  • PeteinSQPeteinSQ Posts: 2,292
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?
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  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,774
    PeteinSQ wrote:
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?

    Why would anyone want to support the sport for the rest of the season then?

    It's a stupid stupid stupid idea. It's not 1932 anymore.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Moose11Moose11 Posts: 235
    I dont mind the idea to much. I mean I've never been a big fan of teams being called only by their sponsorship names, it's hard to form an identity with a team as a fan.
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,129
    afx237vi wrote:
    This is the Tour de France once again assuming that they run the only bike race in the world. How are sponsors going to feel about handing over 15 million euro over to a team for one year when they then get shunned for the Tour de France?

    It's totally unworkable. What are they even suggesting it for? Is it supposed to combat doping? How?
    Isn't it being used as a stick to get sponsors to cough up the money for anti-doping regimes akin to those put in place by CSC, Slipstream and, to a lesser extent, T-Mobile? The major sponsors will want their team to be in the Tour. I'll hazard a guess that the ASO will lay down strict ethical criteria next year so any sponsor will have to do this if they want to get in. It's what the UCI should have done at the inception of the Pro Tour.

    Then, if not enough teams have done this, the ASO can invite a few national teams to ensure they get a field they can be confident in.
  • skutskut Posts: 371
    Why would this give added confidence? Do cyclists not dope when they are riding for their country?
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,129
    skut wrote:
    Why would this give added confidence? Do cyclists not dope when they are riding for their country?
    I don't think it does - I think it's being used as a trojan horse, i.e. sign up to our ethical code and you get in our races. When you look at the races the ASO own then any sponsor is going to tell the team director to stop messing about and put the measures required into place.
  • PeteinSQ wrote:
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?

    What, Astana? No bloody way! :lol:
  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    iainf72 wrote:
    PeteinSQ wrote:
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?

    It's a stupid stupid stupid idea. It's not 1932 anymore.

    I say, steady on old chap. Play the game with a straight bat and all that. Fwaw fwaw fwaw.
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    PeteinSQ wrote:
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?
    Yes, of course we could, but that would mean mean no GB team wouldn't it. Can you see a British sponsor stumping up 10 million euros for a team. The last team we had was ANC 10 years ago. Where does that leave riders like Hushovd?
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,913
    Where does that leave riders like Hushovd?

    In the olden days, riders from the smaller nations often rode under a 'flag of convenience'. So Hushovd might ride for the Dutch team who don't really have a sprinter - he could take Julian Dean with him. I think one Brit (Robinson?) rode for Luxembourg. A joint British/Luxembourg team would be really good these days.

    By contrast the French had several teams, some representing regions of France (this also helped separate the larger egos).

    Rasmussen should be forced to ride for the Mexican team if he wants to join in (just him and a 45 year old Raul Alcala.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • K BlackwellK Blackwell Posts: 1,539
    I should have said 20 years ago re ANC
  • Why don't they do manufacturers teams, like in F1? So you have Trek, Cannondale, Bianchi etc all lining up against each other. Would give some permanance to supporting a team over the years.
    Punctured Bicycle, on a hillside desolate.
  • iainf72iainf72 Posts: 15,774
    Why don't they do manufacturers teams, like in F1? So you have Trek, Cannondale, Bianchi etc all lining up against each other. Would give some permanance to supporting a team over the years.

    Do people support teams though in cycling? I think of it as an individual sport which requires teams?

    I quite like Savoldelli but hate Astana. I was a fan when he was on Disco and T-Mobile too.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    RichN95 wrote:
    Where does that leave riders like Hushovd?

    joint British/Luxembourg team would be really good these days.

    Yeah cos you'd have Schleck, Schleck, Joachim and Kirchen.

    The rest really wouldn't be up to much.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • skutskut Posts: 371
    Why don't they do manufacturers teams, like in F1? So you have Trek, Cannondale, Bianchi etc all lining up against each other. Would give some permanance to supporting a team over the years.

    This is what it was like in the good old days. Benjo Maso has a good discussion of how it changed in his book Sweat of the Gods - the guy is like a human cycling encyclopedia, apparently.
  • afx237viafx237vi Posts: 12,630
    skut wrote:
    Why don't they do manufacturers teams, like in F1? So you have Trek, Cannondale, Bianchi etc all lining up against each other. Would give some permanance to supporting a team over the years.

    This is what it was like in the good old days. Benjo Maso has a good discussion of how it changed in his book Sweat of the Gods - the guy is like a human cycling encyclopedia, apparently.

    He sometimes posts on the rec.bicycles.racing newsgroup. It's true, he knows absolutely everything there is to know about the history of cycling. Haven't read his book though, is it good?
  • jimmythecuckoojimmythecuckoo Posts: 4,409
    On other forums (naming no names) I have detected an element of ridicule for people who take pride in the achievements of the GB national team.

    So I am not sure that would change if we were to have a team in the Tour.

    But what a team we would have eh?...

    1. David Millar (leader)
    2. Charlie Wegelius (Climber)
    3. Bradley Wiggins (Time triallist)
    4. Mark Cavendish (Sprinter)
    5. Geraint Thomas (Domestique)
    6. Dean Downing (Breakaways/Domestique)
    7. Roger Hammond (Sprinter/Lead out man/Breakaway/Domestique)
    8. Russell Downing (Breakways/Domestique)
    9. Jeremey Hunt (Lead out man/Domestique)

    DS - Malcolm Elliott

    1707_1.jpg
  • skutskut Posts: 371
    What about Steve Cummings too?

    It's a good team though, for sure.
  • skutskut Posts: 371
    afx237vi wrote:
    skut wrote:
    Why don't they do manufacturers teams, like in F1? So you have Trek, Cannondale, Bianchi etc all lining up against each other. Would give some permanance to supporting a team over the years.

    This is what it was like in the good old days. Benjo Maso has a good discussion of how it changed in his book Sweat of the Gods - the guy is like a human cycling encyclopedia, apparently.

    He sometimes posts on the rec.bicycles.racing newsgroup. It's true, he knows absolutely everything there is to know about the history of cycling. Haven't read his book though, is it good?

    Must have been you who told me he was an encyclopedia on the other place. His book is very good I thought. His day job is as an academic/sociologist so it's quite dense, but it really goes to work on some of the myths/legends of pro cycling.
  • 1. David Millar (leader)
    2. Charlie Wegelius (Climber)
    3. Bradley Wiggins (Time triallist)
    4. Mark Cavendish (Sprinter)
    5. Geraint Thomas (Domestique)
    6. Dean Downing (Breakaways/Domestique)
    7. Roger Hammond (Sprinter/Lead out man/Breakaway/Domestique)
    8. Russell Downing (Breakways/Domestique)
    9. Jeremey Hunt (Lead out man/Domestique)

    DS - Malcolm Elliott

    If we're having a GB team, could they ride Raleighs please? Or failing that Sevens painted up as Raleighs.
    Punctured Bicycle, on a hillside desolate.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,913

    DS - Malcolm Elliott

    Surely Sean Yates is the obvious choice here? Elliott will probably be trying to make the team.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • leguapeleguape Posts: 986
    iainf72 wrote:
    PeteinSQ wrote:
    Couldn't you have national teams that are sponsored by companies?

    Why would anyone want to support the sport for the rest of the season then?

    It's a stupid stupid stupid idea. It's not 1932 anymore.

    Same reason the likes of Adidas support clubs and countries (isn't team GB one of their tams), same reason team GB's academy riders seem to get Treks issued to them while the company covers Disco for bikes, etc: prestige by association.

    Seeing as it was when their were national teams in the TDF riders were allowed to carry some of their trade team sponsorships and are allowed to do likewise at the Worlds I can't see how it would be too much of an issue ultimately.
  • schlepcyclingschlepcycling Posts: 1,560
    Having just finished reading this thread it seems that the suggestion so far is for national teams sponsored by companies but containing riders from other countries that can't find enough people of the same nationality to form their own national team......that'd be trade teams then!!!!. 8) 8) 8)
    'Hello to Jason Isaacs'
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