An honest assessment of the evidence against Contador

Eurostar

Can we please have one? I really want to know whether this year's winner is clean. If it's Evans, fine. But what if it's Contador?

So here's a list of the circumstantial stuff I have come across. I don't know if it's correct.

- Was a Puerto 'name'. BUT according to the ASO he shouldn't have been. He was mentioned in a recorded phone call, but it soon emerged the callers were discussing his race results, not his non-existent dealings with Fuentes

- He had a blood clot

- He is a client of Rominger, whose other clients include Vino, Kessler and Stinkyshits

- He was managed by Saiz for 2 years at Liberty Seguros

- He is now managed by Bruyneel, who 'probably' doped at ONCE under Saiz and whose riders all seem to fail a test after they leave his team, suggesting that he's a wily old fox who knows more about doping than the other DeeEsses

- He attacked Rasmussen (another 'circumstantial' doper) in a superhuman manner

So...do we burn him as a witch?

GroupOfOne MkII

What about what Top_Bhoy posted the other day about Matt Rendell's comments on an Australian cycling show

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12538523 [url][/url]

Eurostar

I thought I would write that off after ASO's explanation about how he came to be named. Naive maybe!

Al. P. D\'huez

I suppose if we looked hard enough we could find 'circumstancial' evidence against a number of riders. If Bertie wasn't in yellow and white and languishing mid peloton at + 1 hour on GC would we be so keen to do so?

I think it will be a while before we can truly believe that any Grand tour winner is clean...I had my doubts about Di Luca from about half way through this year's Giro.....but thats my opinion and as we all know, opinions are like ar*e**les- everyone's got one and sometimes they stink !

Bronzie

Al. P. D\'huez wrote:

opinions are like ar*e**les- everyone's got one and sometimes they stink !

Bronzie

Eurostar wrote:

I really want to know whether this year's winner is clean.

You will never know...............unless he fails a test...............or confesses all in a tear laden press conference in 2015. We all have our suspicions (especially the bit about Manolo Saiz - he is like poison IMHO) but you can't know 100% about any of them.

F*cking annoying isn't it, but a fact of life!

Eurostar

Thanks for the replies guys, but I wasn't looking for a chit chat! Hasn't anybody got any info relating to evidence?

Bronzie

Well there was also Boonen's comment that Evans was the only GC rider he could trust, but it's hardly evidence. Many people on here also suspect Boonen, so make of that what you will.

Does Bertie have a dog? It's like a witch having a black cat in the old days.............IT'S A SIGN!

iainf72

Bronzie wrote:

Well there was also Boonen's comment that Evans was the only GC rider he could trust, but it's hardly evidence. Many people on here also suspect Boonen, so make of that what you will.

Is that ex US Postal rider Tom Boonen? :P

Langenberg

Contador refused a DNA sample for Fuentes (see link below to Le Monde article mentioned in another thread here). The article also says that Caruso has been banned by Coni for two years while Contador still rides and that the level of 'proof' is exactly the same against both, according to Jaksche anyway.

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0 ... 152,0.html

steveaguy130169

I guess we,ll never really know will we... i cant see myself why the riders.. or at least some of them are so anti this DNAsample,, were talking about astrand of hair for christs sake.. and if you have a clean concious why worry anyhow ?

TheBigOne

What if irt was not solar they were alluding to re the 'test' result, but contador.....
For me there is a little bit to much smoke surrounding contador...
Re boonen and disco - he has not turned in a positive since leaving them... Most unusal...anyone know why he left?
Finally levi's result - wahay back into fold fella, welcome back to the pharmacy.

ricadus

They've saved the team – getting a sponsor for next year should be easy now, even without sponsor-bait Basso.

grimpeur

Sorry, I'm no big Discovery fan, but why the hell are they now crowned the kings of doping? This is a team that has never had a positive test ( I may be wrong on this ).

Why do we assume Boonen is clean when he comes from a team, Quickstep, that rose from the ashes of Mapei, a team now synonymous with doping and which had some high profile doped riders like Museuw.

Yes, Discovery does have suspicions but they simply don't deserve the mis-informed rubbish that gets put forth on this forum by the great ignorant unwashed.

Clean or not, I'm glad Contador won over the souless borefest moaner that is Cadel Evans. Perhaps Evans should actually bother his ass to attack or ride with a bit of class some time.

GroupOfOne MkII

I think Discovery nee US Postal have this reputation in part due to Armstrong's seven wins (and the all the suspicion, rumour, testimonies, who he beat etc surrounding them) and also due to the large number of ex-Posties who have failed tests after they left.

E.g. Heras, Hamilton and Landis.

Plus of course there's the hiring of Signor Basso, not perhaps the sign of a team too concerned with ethics.

And let's not forget that the man in charge did learn everything he knows from Manolo Saiz....now wasn't he...oh yes...

Again though, no Discovery or Postal rider has failed any tests/checks, the closest being the story about Armstrong's blood showing EPO in 1999. But just to stress, they've not failed any tests.

Boonen I'd guess is assumed to be clean because of the various quotes coming from him about Vino etc. But as we've seen before soundbites don't maketh a man.

Not really sure I'd say Mapei were synonomous with doping - infact doping was one of the reasons Giorgio Squinzi pulled his sponsorship from the team! Also if you go by the principle that the GTs of the mid to late 1990s were the premier battlegrounds for doping, then these aren't the sources of Mapei's greatest successes.
Yes some dubious people have been involved with the team - Leferve, Bartoli, Museeum, VdB, Rominger and some of the Spaniards - but I don't recall too many doping scandals surrouding Mapei. Other than Garzelli at the Giro, and that was heavily rumoured to be sabotage to get at Mapei and Squinzi because of his outspokenness towards doping.

Of course that all doesn't mean Mapei were innocent, just that I don't think they were the bastions of doping in the peleton either.

ricadus

GroupOfOne MkII wrote:

Plus of course there's the hiring of Signor Basso, not perhaps the sign of a team too concerned with ethics.

Like I suggested, I think their backs were against the wall at the end of last year with regard to attracting interest from potential team sponsors for 2008 and beyond. Now with the wonder kid Contador on board as a proven winner they are in a more secure position, especially if team co-owner Armstrong takes time while he's over here to ingratiate himself with ASO with regard to their plans for next year.

timjohndavey

He DID NOT have a blood clot. He had a sub-arachnoid haemorrhage . Totally unconnected to Haematocrit, blood viscocity etc. Shall we start the "honest assesment" again ?

Eurostar wrote:

Can we please have one? I really want to know whether this year's winner is clean. If it's Evans, fine. But what if it's Contador?

So here's a list of the circumstantial stuff I have come across. I don't know if it's correct.

- Was a Puerto 'name'. BUT according to the ASO he shouldn't have been. He was mentioned in a recorded phone call, but it soon emerged the callers were discussing his race results, not his non-existent dealings with Fuentes

- He had a blood clot

- He is a client of Rominger, whose other clients include Vino, Kessler and Stinkyshits

- He was managed by Saiz for 2 years at Liberty Seguros

- He is now managed by Bruyneel, who 'probably' doped at ONCE under Saiz and whose riders all seem to fail a test after they leave his team, suggesting that he's a wily old fox who knows more about doping than the other DeeEsses

- He attacked Rasmussen (another 'circumstantial' doper) in a superhuman manner

So...do we burn him as a witch?

mooro

timjohndavey wrote:

He DID NOT have a blood clot. He had a sub-arachnoid haemorrhage . Totally unconnected to Haematocrit, blood viscocity etc. Shall we start the "honest assesment" again ?

Eurostar wrote:

Can we please have one? I really want to know whether this year's winner is clean. If it's Evans, fine. But what if it's Contador?

So here's a list of the circumstantial stuff I have come across. I don't know if it's correct.

- Was a Puerto 'name'. BUT according to the ASO he shouldn't have been. He was mentioned in a recorded phone call, but it soon emerged the callers were discussing his race results, not his non-existent dealings with Fuentes

- He had a blood clot

- He is a client of Rominger, whose other clients include Vino, Kessler and Stinkyshits

- He was managed by Saiz for 2 years at Liberty Seguros

- He is now managed by Bruyneel, who 'probably' doped at ONCE under Saiz and whose riders all seem to fail a test after they leave his team, suggesting that he's a wily old fox who knows more about doping than the other DeeEsses

- He attacked Rasmussen (another 'circumstantial' doper) in a superhuman manner

So...do we burn him as a witch?

I think establishing the facts was eurostars intention........

grimpeur

Good points, and there certainly is a lot to suspect with Discovery...

Regarding Mapei, - Cyclingnews.com - July 7th 2007 -http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2007/jul07/jul10news2

"Proof of systematic doping at Mapei?

Documents have surfaced in Italy which offer proof of systematic doping by the defunct Italian Team Mapei, according to German television station ARD. During the 2001 season riders where systematically taking drugs such as EPO, testosterone, anabolic steroids, and also most likely synthetic insulin, the documents allegedly reveal.

No riders were named in the documents, according to the reports. Many riders taking part in this year's Tour de France were members of the 2001 Mapei team, including the current bearer of the yellow jersey and Time Trial World Champion Fabian Cancellara (Team CSC) and Italian world champion Paolo Bettini (Quickstep-Innergetic)."

GroupOfOne MkII

Oh fair enough I'd not seen that news story regarding Mapei, so that's quite interesting.

Giogrio Squinzi was (and still is) staunchly anti-doping though, perhaps that was another reason he left if he knew or found out what was going on.

grimpeur

Yeah, I had always held Mapei up as a great anti-doping team until I saw that article. Certainly Giogrio Squinzi seemed like a genuine guy. Perhaps he did find out something indicating all was not well within his team and pulled the plug.

nick hanson

grimpeur wrote:

Sorry, I'm no big Discovery fan, but why the hell are they now crowned the kings of doping? This is a team that has never had a positive test ( I may be wrong on this ).

Why do we assume Boonen is clean when he comes from a team, Quickstep, that rose from the ashes of Mapei, a team now synonymous with doping and which had some high profile doped riders like Museuw.

Yes, Discovery does have suspicions but they simply don't deserve the mis-informed rubbish that gets put forth on this forum by the great ignorant unwashed.

Clean or not, I'm glad Contador won over the souless borefest moaner that is Cadel Evans. Perhaps Evans should actually bother his ass to attack or ride with a bit of class some time.

I thought Evans conducted himself very well on the Galibier stage,& it must be difficult to attack against people who are obviously putting out more power.The Disco's made an error of judgement (of which i thought immediately,& their DS admitted at the end of the stage) in not waiting for Evans (maybe 10 secs at most) to distance themselves from Rasmussen on the run in to Briancon.Future developments with Rasmussen let them off the hook on that one.
As for the uncrowned kings of doping,you have to be realistic & ask yourself,how in an era of mega doping,one guy could have the edge on many top named cyclists who were proved to have doped.I DO hope it was natural tallent,& this may be the case,but with so many whiter than white images being destroyed,you have to keep an open mind

Monty Dog

The reason that Boonen left USPS is that he didn't fancy career towing a hopeless Hincapie around the classics or spending 3 weeks in July towing the peloton - he was never going to be the 'protected' classics rider for the Ronde or P-Rx. Although there is only anecdotal evidence against the team, there is also a surprising amount of behaviour that strongly indicates they've got something to hide. I still believe that the Andreu's evidence is pretty compelling too. Bruyneel would also be extremely familiar with the 'active rest' programme 'pioneered' by Saiz, where riders would take a break following the Spring classics and be 'flying' in July - sounds familiar??

saisie

Eurostar wrote:

Thanks for the replies guys, but I wasn't looking for a chit chat! Hasn't anybody got any info relating to evidence?

No.

Because there has been no evidence established against the guy. Refer to velonews and their findings in relation to Operacion Puerto. I think there is a non story there.

I like to think he's clean.
I've admired him for several years.
However, obviously I (we) know nothing for sure, but I think he ought to be given a little respect unless someone can come up with concrete evidence against the guy, instead of idle speculation.
[/url]http://www.velonews.com/tour2007/news/articles/12964.0.html[url][/url]