Doping...

jonesy124

Like many people here i am new to the cycling scene and am very confused by the amount of doping that seems to be going on.

Why do professional cyclists feel the need to do it when they know what risks are involved? Do they not care about the damage they are causing to the the world of cycling and its reputation?

I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this one.... cheers.

Max Weber

Why do footballers dive, students cheat in exams or coursework, or city boys fiddle their taxes?

penugent

jonesy124 wrote:

professional cyclists feel the need to do it .

Cash.

jonesy124

but at the end of the day its not just having a bad affect on them, its giving cycling a bad name. maybe they're not too bothered about that.

gkerr4

same as all sports really - pressure to win to succeed to do well for your sponsors and ultimately for personal gain.

In the grand tours, there is the added element of it being such a mega -endurance event - and yet every second counds - every last % of effort or power you can get out of your body counts - so people are naturally going to want the best equipment, the best diet and ultimately - turn to substances to get even more from their bodies..

Felix-da-house-mouse

why dont they have a tour with only the main sponsors envolved?

AndyGates

What would that achieve?

Felix-da-house-mouse

less sponsors to please? reduce the greed of it all, if yousponsor a team u want the on the news press etc bywinning not losing, so thats why theres so much pressure on the riders to perform for the sponsors

hammerite

Felix-da-house-mouse wrote:

less sponsors to please? reduce the greed of it all, if yousponsor a team u want the on the news press etc bywinning not losing, so thats why theres so much pressure on the riders to perform for the sponsors

But the sponsors don't want to be associated with drug cheats, or look to be supporting it, it gives really bad PR. If anything the sponsors can help drive drugs out.

oldwelshman

This has gone on for years.
basically when a few did it and got away with it as teams ignored and even encouraged it, it meant the others basically had to do the same to copmete.
That is silly becuase they results ended up the same as before, just that vast majority were doping.
At least now the teams are taking an active role in doping monitoring and prevention so there is now a good chance it will get clean.
It has to because if sponsors pull out there is no professional cycling and then where would the dopers be?

SteveR_100Milers

jonesy124 wrote:

Like many people here i am new to the cycling scene and am very confused by the amount of doping that seems to be going on.

Why do professional cyclists feel the need to do it when they know what risks are involved? Do they not care about the damage they are causing to the the world of cycling and its reputation?
I would like to hear other peoples opinions on this one.... cheers.

sadly a significant minority don't. The desire to win or simply survive is too great. Difference is this year the majority of the riders are outwardly against doping. 10 years ago the opposite was true. This is why the real cyclists and enthusiasts see the recent events as positive, and not the end or death of the tour as has been widely reported in the press. At least until next time and the next time....

stage_fright

Having worked in professional sport - not cycling - then the prevelant attitude is 'it's only cheating if you are caught'.

I have heard competitors being giving instructions on how to damage equipment right at the end of an event to that it couldn't be checked for legality, and knew a guy who had worked for a team who were twice world champions, and he always said he would leave it ten years then tell us how they were cheating.

Riders want to be succesful, teams need success to gain and retain sponsors - I would assume that teams are being run as businesses, thus, as said above - its all about the money.

domtyler

It's funny how this kind of thing only happens in Cycling though, you never hear of footballers who 'forget' to turn up to drugs tests, or doping in horse racing or athletics and I couldn't even imagine a situation where one formula one racing team were caught red-handed with confidential material of their competitors.
________
Zx14 Vs Hayabusa

fossyant

I can see how easily done/tempting the doping is. In my younger years I used to be mainly a time triallist, but also did some road racing. To race two days on the trot was hard. I did a small stage race once, consisting of 4 stages over two days - that was a killer by the third stage.

The most abused races are the big tours, three weeks of in excess of 100 miles, each day, up massive mountains....... very very hard - even as a seasoned racing cyclist, I still wonder how the hell they do that day in, day out.. It's the pressure to do well, the cash, just completing a race - it's very tough, the drugs make it more achievable.

It's like all walks of life, there are the honest people who will battle and persevere to get to where they are going, then there are the down right cheats.

Just can't believe the riders are stupid enough to take stuff. Here is an example... Have a bad day, take some drugs, then have a good day and win the stage. Oh forgot, they test the top finishers - As Homer would say............. DOH !

What was Vino thinking. Dumb ass !

Eat My Dust

domtyler wrote:

It's funny how this kind of thing only happens in Cycling though, you never hear of footballers who 'forget' to turn up to drugs tests, or doping in horse racing or athletics and I couldn't even imagine a situation where one formula one racing team were caught red-handed with confidential material of their competitors.

What about Premiership football. The body that does the drug testing have to inform the club who and when they are going to test. I think it was only last year that the person in charge of the drug testing was complaining that, on a frequent basis, they would show up, and the player(s) would be off "sick".

As for drug taking in athletics, this happens as often as in cycling!!

penugent

Eat My Dust wrote:

domtyler wrote:

It's funny how this kind of thing only happens in Cycling though, you never hear of footballers who 'forget' to turn up to drugs tests, or doping in horse racing or athletics and I couldn't even imagine a situation where one formula one racing team were caught red-handed with confidential material of their competitors.

What about Premiership football. As for drug taking in athletics, this happens as often as in cycling!!

I think domtyler was writing in jest. Doping is involved in all professional sports.

It's all about cash, as I said above.

photojonny

Bradley Wiggins has an article on the Guardian website today. He states that the guy who got caught doping in his team (Moreni) was a really nice guy, but he hypothesised that at 34, this guy was desperate for a final decent contract before he retired. He was prepared to risk getting caught so he could negotiate a better deal for himself.

Another article states that a cheat in one context can be a gentleman in another: 'The cyclist who takes dope won't cheat at a friendly game of boules, and would be horrified at the very idea'.

As stated above, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY (and possible the fame, celebrity and everything that goes along with that). Better results = better contracts = better sponsorship deals = more media coverage = higher profile. A cyclist's career is very short, and there is huge temptation to cheat in order to make as much cash out of it as possible.

hammerite

photojonny wrote:

Bradley Wiggins has an article on the Guardian website today. He states that the guy who got caught doping in his team (Moreni) was a really nice guy, but he hypothesised that at 34, this guy was desperate for a final decent contract before he retired. He was prepared to risk getting caught so he could negotiate a better deal for himself.

Another article states that a cheat in one context can be a gentleman in another: 'The cyclist who takes dope won't cheat at a friendly game of boules, and would be horrified at the very idea'.

As stated above, IT'S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY (and possible the fame, celebrity and everything that goes along with that). Better results = better contracts = better sponsorship deals = more media coverage = higher profile. A cyclist's career is very short, and there is huge temptation to cheat in order to make as much cash out of it as possible.

That seems to be the main problem. I was watching Eurosport the other week and they were answering some viewer questions. One of the questions was about prize money and how much riders earn in their contracts.

One of the answers (which I think was from Sean Kelly), said that at the lower end of the tour a domestique earns about €50,000 per year (at a guess about £35,000), which for a profesional sportsman is nothing. Apparently the teams now take the money from endorsements and share it out, so a rider would struggle to get anything extra than their share.

The prize money for the tour doesn't seem to be that fantastic considering how tough it is and how high profile it is.

If you think that a rider could've been earning that amount (or the relative amount) for 15 years, and retires they would have to go out and find themselves a normal job (probably with rubbish pay as they don't have any experience of anything other than riding). I would imagine that further jobs within cycling would be in very short supply.

It's no excuse for cheating, but I suppose you can imagine the desperation some people must feel in this position.

kevinh

I suppose if you commit to cycling, have some success, train as hard as you dare and still cant really make it there will be some temptation to get some chemical assistance. It has gone on for years (we're told) and it would seem that blind eyes have been turned at all levels. Maybe this year with the German TV companies pulling out there will be real pressure to get things sorted. I hope so because having marvelled at Rassmussen and Floyd Landis I feel conned and I think others do too.

ricadus

At the top end of the sport – probably any sport – there is the tiniest fraction of a difference in performance that is deciding those coming first or just one of the also-rans.

Most of the cyclists competing for the prizes have been winners – regional or national champions – up to this point, then suddenly they arrive at a level where they are just "average" and have to face the fact that ambition has, at least temporarily, out-paced ability, but also perhaps that's as good as they will ever be without "assistance".

I expect that pathologically ambitious-competitive types would do literally anything to succeed - doping, lying, exploiting friendships, etc.– whatever the moral, social or physiological consequences. Olympic title by using un-detectable drugs, but with possibly reduced life-expectancy? No doubt about the answer.

Kléber

Cynically put, so far the benefits of doping have been enormous: increased salary, better results, less work needed. And the costs have been tiny: some health concerns but no one knows and the chance of getting caught is very low. So on this basis, you can see why people cheat.

It doesn't even have to involve someone wanting to win. A rider might have had an injury-ridden season and take short cuts to prepare for some end of season races. in order to snag a contract for the following year. Others just want to do their job, indeed many from the 1990s spoke of "being professional", "preparing" and "doing the job". The need to do a long pull on the front of the bunch to bring back that break means either you can work alongside the cheats or your unemployed the next year.

What's more interesting is how the cheats live in denial. They don't think they are doping. It is extremely rare for a rider to hold his hands up and admit he broke the rules. "It's for my dog/mother in law" (Vandenbroucke, Rumsas), "my vitamin pills were contaminated with EPO" (Bruylandts), "the asthma inhaler exploded in my face", "my leg was full with blood". It's only a matter of time before we get "aliens abducted me and injected me". Few can bring themselves to admit their guilt, it's as if they've convinced themselves of their innocence to the point of hysteria.

Anyway, as sad as this all is, don't stress. Just ride your bike and forget about the showbiz...

redddraggon

http://www.adidas.com/campaigns/cycling ... idascom=en

Is that not Vino?

Felix-da-house-mouse

domtyler wrote:

It's funny how this kind of thing only happens in Cycling though, you never hear of footballers who 'forget' to turn up to drugs tests, or doping in horse racing or athletics and I couldn't even imagine a situation where one formula one racing team were caught red-handed with confidential material of their competitors.

wasit not Rio ferdinand that missed a drug test last year and nearly ended his career? someone like that, Vinakourov was stupid tow in that tt after that big crash the day b4 it was a stick on he was on something, i just hope it continues to get better after the speculation over the years, test them every day, i feel sorry for the team mates that arent taking it and are getting ounted off the tour i,e Bradley Wiggins and the Cofidis team, the Astana team

andy610

doping is cheating it gives an unfair advantage to the rider over the others and isnt sporting, winning the race without doping is a true sportsman and pro

driverpm

Clearly, having been seriously evil in another life I now work for one of only 2 WADA accredited labs in the UK, the attitudes of some athletes beggar belief - not only are many of them physiologically different from the majority of the population but most are psychologically very different too - giving them that drive to win at whatever cost. I suspect, personally (and cynically), it's not a moral issue for many of them - more a fear of being caught that stops them doping. therefore the bigger the fear and greater the consequences - the less doping is likely to occur.
There is a quote that many of us have used in lectures, I can't remember the exact numbers (but can get the ref. if anyone's interested), but in essence nearly 200 elite athletes were asked a simple question:
if you were able to take a drug that would guarantee winning all competitions you enter for the next 5 years, and not be found out, would you take it?
Sadly, but not surprisingly nearly all (~95%) said yes.
then they were faced with same question again, but with the caveat that 5 years following the last win you would die as a result of the drug taking - would you still do it?
Amazingly over 50% still replied yes!
Si i guess to stop people doping the penalty for being caught needs to far outweigh the gains from doping.
Anyhoo, i really hope one day it will be 100% clean, except of course i'd be out of a job

baudman

Like all 'subcultures', some of the 'common beliefs' within that subculture can get seriously warped. Things that an outsider may not believe, or may not understand, would just be the way things are done within that subculture.

So... that's the way I see doping in the cycling circuit. It's dumb. It's for the cash. But I can see how they believe they can get away with it.

Not that it excuses anything.

I wish Cadel had got his time bonuses...

baudman

Here's a quote:

"I still believe that there is a minority out there who are willing to push the boundaries -- the minority all seem to be over 30 years of age, coming toward the end of their careers. I think that shows a generational thing." -- British pro Bradley Wiggins, 27, seeing the push toward a cleaner sport being spearheaded by the younger generation of riders who haven't grown up in the old-school doping culture.