Vino - stupid question

ut_och_cykla

Having done so well on Saturday - presumably because of a blood transfusion of someone elses blood, why did it leave Vino so unable to keep up the following day when he fell 32 or so minutes behind. Surely teh Saturday blood benefit would have helped him on Sunday too.

Sensible answers only would be nice

Kidjambo

Looks like the blood transfusion kicked-in again on Monday though!

I read a very interesting interview with Bradley Wiggins last night after Vino was kicked out and the whole Astana team were invited to withdraw. He said that, not with standing the slightly different conditions that Vino had to him in the later stages of the time trial, he did not see how Vino could have put in such a performance and so much time into him given that his power output must have been far in excess of Wiggins and he didn't see how that was possible given the fact that he had been limping around for a week beforehand following his nasty crash. Wiggins was worried that something was amiss but decided to not voice his opinion for fear of getting into trouble!

So, this years supposedly clean tour is thrown into chaos again with the Astana team in shame and Rasmussen's memory in question (did her really talk to a woman from the international doping committee some 6 months BEFORE she even started the job?) This cheating needs to be sorted out once and for all otherwise the-is great sports image will be tarnished (or more-tarnished) beyond repair! :evil:

off the back

Great question -
He may have just gone so hard on Sun he did not come around - remember with the x-tra blood he would be super human pusging his beyond beyong the norms. The effects on his muscles would be huge. Even with the new blood it would take a long time to repair the damage done. (Who knows he may even ahve tried HGH to aid recovery as this is undetectable). The stage starts and he is struggling hard so he fights but eventually gives up. At this point he knows victory is gone and rides Piano. The stage is now effectively a recovery ride he comes back strong the next day as he had a relatively easy ride versus main GC riders (most riders rode previous day hard) and advantage Vino again.

Not an expert but he may also have feared a heamatocrit test and used a saline solution to dilute his blood.

Kidjambo

Do you know how long this foreign blood from the transfusion would be detectable under test conditions? Is that how riders disguise the fact they have had a blood transfusion by diluting with saline from a drip?

off the back

The slaine solution is to keep the heamatocrit belwo 50%. But the blood you have taken on is still detectable.http://www.velonews.com/news/fea/12924.0.html (explains the testing - and why DNA is not part of the testing).

I am not a medic but it would appear that the test is very sensitive. However blood in anyones body has a life cycle of a few weeks (4-6 I think). So depending on when you took the blood and the concentration it would be less detectable.

However we have no test for doping with your own blood. So in Nov, Dec when training volumes are small you could prepare for the season and be undetectable afterwards.

Kidjambo

I think it would take a lot more than some new blood to see me around the route but its worth bearing in mind how I could disguise any doping I might be involved in if I ever achieve the status of ProTour Team Rider - not that I would be involved obviously as I, like the great Lance Armstrong, are 110% clean! LOL

Very interesting subject though!

off the back

Read on -
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/?id ... d_positive
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/?id ... o_protease
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... /oct16news

right time for me to do some work :-)

PS - another positive form stage 11 in the tour !!

Kidjambo

Yeah - I saw that one of the eight riders tested after stage 11 had tested positive for testosterone! Could be either Hunter, Rasmussen, Iglinskiy, Zabel, Jegou, Moreni, Vila or Kirchen! I'll put my money on Rasmussen or possibly Zabel - he did ride for the drug-addled T-Mobile squad for far too many years to be 100% clean!

off the back

Iglinskiy on Astana... I put him 5/4 fav
Hunter...................4/1
Rasmussen .........8/1 (not that I am a fan but seems well versed in avoiding getting caught!)

Moreni, Vila 25/1 no idea

Zabel & Kirchen....... think they is clean so 100/1

Jegou 150/1 as never heard of him

Kidjambo

Good point about Kirchen - T-Mobile are supposed to be super-clean I forgot!

I think you might be right about Iglinskiy - easy to tar all the Astana riders with one brush but seems likely!

Jegou is a French rider on the Francaise Des Jeux squad - I met him at an event as I work for a French company - nice bloke but very quiet and, in my opinion, unlikely to be involved in anything dodgy!

I'll seee what odds Paddy Power are offering on Iglinskiy or Rasmussen! Got to get my money back somehow - I had Kloden as overall GC from the outset!

off the back

I have Contador @40/1 so fingers crossed on pulling off a massive coup :-) but to be honest think Ras will win :-(

Been Kessler and Mazzonleini on Astana already, now vino so if this +ve they will not get inot other races. remember were only a wild card in the tour

Kidjambo

I read a good review with the tour organiser who were loathed to give Astana the wild card place but eventually backed down after they were given assurances over the "cleanness" of the team - got egg on their faces now haven't they!

off the back

and think that Tour-GHiro-Vuelta will play a stronger hand to control who they let into races. That will open up teh UCI-Grand tour rift

Kidjambo

I think it could be good though if some of the lesser teams get invited to participate - look at Barloworld in this years tour. Nobody would have given them much of a parayer of anything except occupying the bottom nine places on the overall classification but Hunters got a stage win and Soler was doing well today last I heard

le_patron

If doping is a criminal offence in France and Moreni was taken away by gendarmes, why hasn't Vino been arrested ?

Kidjambo

Wasn't Moreni arrested for taking testosterone? I think that might be why he was arrested as, as far as I am aware, thats illegal in France whereas using a blood transfusion like Vino isn't! Or maybe I'm completely wrong! :?

Bronzie

I believe that "sporting fraud" is actually an offence under French criminal law, which would apply equally to both riders. No idea then why Vino was allowed to swan off back to Monaco. I guess both may yet face charges?

EmergBiker

One reason why performance can alter from one day to the next amongst cheats, (yes cheats), is that blood doping is potentially a two way process. A couple of extra bags in the morning, take an equivalent amount out at night.

Get it wrong and you either end up way over (Hct too high) or too far under the next day (Hct too low).

E

Parlee

I am still a little confused as to why he would utilise a method of doping that it is absolutley guarenteed that he would get caught for.

I know that this argument does have its weaknesses, but it still confuses me, any thoughts?

ut_och_cykla

Vino is either more stupid than Borat or the test is not reliable in sports settings. Indeed if I understand correctly it was never checked out on sports people during its development.
Until the method can be verified on a larger more varied population its a matter of faith. Choose you're own cause and level of confusion, and keep in mind that ASO & UCI are NOT big mates at the moment.

Kléber

The test has existed since for two years, it was authorised as an appropriate measure back then by WADA and is not some crazy test. It's been used by different labs to test a range of athletes.

However, the French lab at Chatenay Malabry (CM )only started using the test in June this year. So it is quite possible that Vino knew his blood samples were going to CM but didn't realise that they'd introduced the new test.

So far we've had Vino saying it was his accident which caused blood to swell up in his leg. Now it's the lab that's at fault. It's the Landis defence: blame everyone one, blame everything else and in the meantime rack up a giant legal bill. Nice work for the lawyers...

DavidBelcher

le patron wrote:

If doping is a criminal offence in France and Moreni was taken away by gendarmes, why hasn't Vino been arrested ?

Hmm...all that readily springs to mind is the classic Al Murray line;

"Those are the rules, and if we didn't have any rules, then where would we be? That's right - France!"



David

ut_och_cykla

Kleber
I'm not saying its a crazy test, nor that Vino is innocent but I have worked in analytical labs and have a good idea about how much so-called 'absolutely certain' tests can vary

e.g MAchines can be faulty, test samples badly handled and prepared, standard solutions incorrectly prepared - either with the wrong chemicals or to the wrong strength. Some lab machines are extremely sensitive obviously but by their very nature can also be quite tempremental. Problems like this mean that extensive testing and multi-lab testing is necessary at regular intervals and thatt when there is 'funny ' result, someone else does the test again from scratch, under supervision. If it was going to court several independent labs would do the test 'blind'.

we dealt with things like effluent samples not blood but it was very strict as whole companies could be wrongly fined if we got it wrong. I don't see any sign of this level of testing being used to put pro-riders 'out of business' and I think, whatever the rights of wrongs of doping, if you're going to prevent someone from exercising their chosen livelihood you need to be as close to 100% certain as you can be. What I've read of the homologous blood tests (and external testosterone for that matter) instills little faith in me.

sorry to drone on....

hevipedal

Kléber wrote:

The test has existed since for two years, it was authorised as an appropriate measure back then by WADA and is not some crazy test. ..

It's been around a lot longer than 2 years. It's only in sports testing that it's been there for 2 years......... as a medical test it has been around a lot longer