So much for T-Mobile's testing regime...

iainf72

aba2005 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Kessler probably was through the Astana connection.

What is the Astana connection? Maybe i'm being naive but i thought that the team is under totally new management since becoming Astana.

Vino prepared by Dr F would usually mean a large portion of the team is also be prepared by him. And Kessler was one of the inner circle along with Eddy M (another client of Dr F)

iainf72

Ridgerider wrote:

My adoration of T-Mobile this year has been on the basis that there is no acceptance of doping in the current team management, and no defence of anyone caught in the act. Compare this with the current crop of guilty italian cyclists who have all had their wrists slapped by their teams and their contacts renewed!

And you can like them for that ,why not.

However, today's news has shown we can cast doubts over whether the riders in the team are all as clean as people think.

RichN95.

Ridgerider wrote:

My adoration of T-Mobile this year has been on the basis that there is no acceptance of doping in the current team management, and no defence of anyone caught in the act. Compare this with the current crop of guilty italian cyclists who have all had their wrists slapped by their teams and their contacts renewed!

I agree with you, and I've become a fan. If I'm not mistaken (and there'a good chance I am) Sinkewitz was caught out by the very testers that T-Mobile are sponsoring - so the scheme is working - another cheat gone. And if that is in fact the case then German TV's plug pulling would seem misguided.

If I was a good quality clean pro (rather than a mere recreational cyclist) , I'd be attracted to the likes of T-Mobile and CSC as they provide more opportunity to prove cleanliness.

knedlicky

pedalpower wrote:

Also, Sinkewitz was caught by the German authorities, not UCI international bodies, is that correct? Would it be fair to assume that the Germans are more proactive than other countries partly because of huge funding that T-mobile give them and the support of other german teams like Gerolsteiner too.

The whole situation in Germany is complicated by the fact that one of the main sponsors of the BDR (German Association of Cyclists, the governing body for cycling in Germany) is a company called Stada, a pharmaceutical company producing Epo.
Though they are not the only Epo-producing company with a connection to cycling – in America, the company Amgen sponsor a race in California.

The Standa turnover from Epo is small compared to that of all Europe, only about 15%, and miniscule to the turnover from Epo of companies in the USA, like Johnson, Amgen, Roche, Sandol, Hexal, Amgen and others. The combined turnover of US companies is easily 4 times or more the total turnover in Europe.
Epo experts estimate that only 20-25% of Epo is used for medicinal purposes related to illnesses like kidney disease and cancers. So the question is then, where does the rest go? And sport in general, not just cycling, is thought to be the answer.

knedlicky

RichN95 wrote:

If I'm not mistaken (and there'a good chance I am) Sinkewitz was caught out by the very testers that T-Mobile are sponsoring - so the scheme is working - another cheat gone. And if that is in fact the case then German TV's plug pulling would seem misguided.

The German TV equivalents of the BBC channels did threaten to ‘pull the plug’ on the Tour coverage if a doping scandal occurred during the Tour, but they must be wondering themselves if they are doing the right thing in keeping their word.

Although viewing figures were lowish for the start in London (less than 1 million compared to 5 million for the Formula One race that weekend), they have since increased, with 4 million viewers (over 20% of the TV public) watching the Tignes stage, and an average viewing percentage during the first week of the Tour of around 13%, which means just under 2 million.
Eurosport only gets about one eighth of this number of viewers, or did up to now.

method

knedlicky wrote:

Epo experts estimate that only 20-25% of Epo is used for medicinal purposes related to illnesses like kidney disease and cancers. So the question is then, where does the rest go? And sport in general, not just cycling, is thought to be the answer.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see some evidence or a link of some sort to back that up. 75% is rather a lot.

dave_1

I don't see how this damages T Mobile's image or their ethical credibility. How can anyone know if someone has a testosterone patch on? They'd have to do bag searches and strip searches to catch Sinkewitz. There are 20 riders or so in T Mobile...20 people...on the average at least a few civilians of 20 will be crooked in any walk of life, any office, so why should professional cycling be any different from life as it really is?

timoid.

Dave_1 wrote:

I don't see how this damages T Mobile's image or their ethical credibility. How can anyone know if someone has a testosterone patch on? They'd have to do bag searches and strip searches to catch Sinkewitz. There are 20 riders or so in T Mobile...20 people...on the average at least a few civilians of 20 will be crooked in any walk of life, any office, so why should professional cycling be any different from life as it really is?

It doesn't call into account T-Mobile's ethical credibility, but rather the effectiveness of their regime.

He continued to ride for five weeks after his positive test and was even picked for their tour roster based on form that he had acquired through doping.

Bravo to the testers for catching another one though.

phil s

T-Mobile do not carry out dope tests, they carry out blood screening to pick up anomalies caused by illegal blood transfusions. They leave the drugs testing to the governing bodies.

iainf72

phil s wrote:

T-Mobile do not carry out dope tests, they carry out blood screening to pick up anomalies caused by illegal blood transfusions. They leave the drugs testing to the governing bodies.

Because they catch people ALL the time, don't they?

Their regime is weak and ineffective. Giving money to NADA strikes me as a get out of jail clause...."Oh, you caught someone in an normal test....well, we helped fund that so we did our bit"

bigdawg

I love doping threads, there are some real leaps of logic on this one

Yes we know about his dodgy past but Ferrari is still one ofthe best coaches on this planet, BUT im sure he doesnt tie his riders to chairs and force epo into their blood or seruptitiously slap someone on the back with a testosterone patch in his hand These riders make the choices, knowing full well what the consequences are. As said before if ferrari is supplying drugs im sure there are enough people watching him waiting for him to slip up, or compiling dossiers of evidence.

Also Im quite sure riders now dope independently. They dont all sit around the peleton chatting about the best way to hide drug ampules. Chances are the rest ot T-M didnt know anything was amiss with Mr Sinkowitz.

And finally 75% of epo is not used for medical use...??!! Please lets have some proof for this

Stark.

Yes, it's a bad day for T-Mobile (and the sport in general). But if the response to Sinkewitz is unequivocal then at least that will send out the right message to other riders.

Flushing drugs out of cycling can only happen through a combination of rigorous testing, meaningful deterrents in terms of penalties and a zero tolerance approach to the issue from teams, sponsors, fans....oh...and riders too.

One of the major problems seems to be the ability of riders to join a team, yet still maintain independent links with free agents, including doctors and scientists with less than spotless reputations.

The decision of German TV to pull the plug is worrying too. Are sponsors going to seriously consider putting money into teams if they can't guarantee getting the amount of TV exposure they require? If the money dries up all the riders (clean or otherwise) can kiss goodbye to any hopes of earning a decent living from the sport.

Eurostar

I've always wanted a job connected with the Tour - motorcycle pilot, or podium girl fetlock polisher or something. I have now regretfully come to the conclusion that the best job is Doping Doctor. Shedloads of money, you can take the credit for all the attacks that go down in history, you meet lots of top riders, and best of all you are the only person they don't lie to.

RichN95.

method wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

Epo experts estimate that only 20-25% of Epo is used for medicinal purposes related to illnesses like kidney disease and cancers. So the question is then, where does the rest go? And sport in general, not just cycling, is thought to be the answer.

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see some evidence or a link of some sort to back that up. 75% is rather a lot.

I'm dubious of that figure as well. Amegen's revenue in 2005 was over $12 billion - and Epogen is their best seller. There are far more cancer, kidney and anemia patients out there than drug cheats.

andyp

I've heard something similar to knedlicky's statement about EPO sales. I'm sure I read that Italy is the largest market for EPO which, given it's relative size to other developed Western countries, surprised me. I'll try and find it again.

ricadus

It was mentioned in a Guardian article a couple of years ago; something about the sales of EPO being so large in Northern Italy as to suggest there being many more haemophiliacs than actually there are.

skut

I still think the best deterrent against doping is team penalties. Why not suspend T-Mobile from the Tour, or alternatively ban them from subsequent races?

Edit: And Astana.

iainf72

On the EPO tip, apparantly Fuentes supplied low grade Chinese EPO to his charges which would indicate the "good" stuff probably isn't as widely used as it once was.

Frankie Andreau's comments about how he just walked into a chemist in Switzerland and asked for it by brand name shows how easy it used to be (and the pharmacist asked if he was sure he only wanted one box)

iainf72

skut wrote:

I still think the best deterrent against doping is team penalties. Why not suspend T-Mobile from the Tour, or alternatively ban them from subsequent races?

T-Mobile would just leave the sport.

How will that stop individuals doping?

skut

iainf72 wrote:

skut wrote:

I still think the best deterrent against doping is team penalties. Why not suspend T-Mobile from the Tour, or alternatively ban them from subsequent races?

T-Mobile would just leave the sport.

How will that stop individuals doping?

I'm not saying there shouldn't be individual penalties too. When I said best deterrent, I meant best one that is not currently in use - sorry for confusion. My reasons are that:

It will a) increase peer pressure not to dope. b) ) punish, for example, a team leader who receives help from team members who dope, even if he himself is not doping c) force team management to take more responsibility.

knedlicky

method wrote:

I'm not saying I don't believe you, but I'd like to see some evidence or a link of some sort to back that up. 75% is rather a lot.

bigdawg wrote:

And finally 75% of epo is not used for medical use...??!! Please lets have some proof for this

RichN95 wrote:

[I'm dubious of that figure as well. Amegen's revenue in 2005 was over $12 billion - and Epogen is their best seller. There are far more cancer, kidney and anemia patients out there than drug cheats.

I was repeating the independent claims made by a German doping expert (whose name I've forgotten) and by the well-known Italian doping expert and pro-active doping opponent Alessandro Donati, presented respectively on a satellite Euronews programme and in the German weekly magazine Der Spiegel.
Both experts maintain that Epo is purposely produced in greater quantities than required for medicinal purposes by pharmaceutical companies, with the knowledge that there is a market for it in the sports world, including recreational sport (Wada, the world anti-doping agency, thinks 2/3 of Epo sales are to recreational sportsmen and women, not professionals)

The German expert reckons that only 22% of Epo is used in treating illnesses, while Donati reckons an even lower figure, only 17-20%. Donati thinks a similar discrepancy exists between sales of growth hormone and its actual medicinal need.

In early 2007, Donati produced a report about Epo over-production which was presented to Wada. In it, he estimated that the number of ill people currently being treated with Epo was in the region of 500,000 worldwide, a rise of 150,000 from the number 7-8 years ago. Two-thirds of those have kidney disease (most kidney patients in the West receive Epo). The other third are mostly cancer patients, and therein may lie the potential for increased medicinal use of Epo - although it's use against cancer is also disputed, some claim it has the opposite effect, i.e. it shortens the lives of cancer patients.

Anyway, given 500,000 patients, the known counter price of the stuff, and the fact that there is a recommended dosage, it's not hard to calculate what the turnover of pharmaceutical companies due to Epo should be and compare it with the figures the companies actually publish about Epo sales, and thus see the discrepancy. And so come up with a percentage.

bigdawg

trouble is theres only so much testing a team can do. Unless you are testing riders every other day, any rider can nip off and get whatever they fancy.

Sinkowitz knew hed be tested by his team, the UCI and the German sports bods, and still he took a risk.

Also if you ban the team, theyd be no one left to race by the end ofthe season.. :shock:

skut

I thought we'd already established that T Mobile do not test their riders.
CSC do.

bigdawg

they do blood testing, to check against 'blood spinning'

knedlicky

andyp wrote:

I'm sure I read that Italy is the largest market for EPO which, given it's relative size to other developed Western countries, surprised me.

ricadus wrote:

It was mentioned in a Guardian article a couple of years ago; something about the sales of EPO being so large in Northern Italy as to suggest there being many more haemophiliacs than actually there are.

The biggest market for Epo is the USA. Sales there are 7-8 times higher than in Europe.

There was a story in the press about 10 years ago about enough Epo being sold in Italy to treat 40,000 patients, though there were only 3,000 ill people registered as receiving Epo. Maybe that's the story ricadus remembers.
Nowadays the main illegal sources of Epo for sportsmen are considered to be Spain, Ukraine and Kasachstan, mafia-groups in the latter countries illegally making their own, or stealing from warehouses in the West.

In Europe you can get Epo over the counter at a chemist if you've got a (compliant) doctor's prescription, but in the USA you can simply order it online and it comes in the post. In online sales, Epo is now one of the top 10 best selling drugs in the USA. The online medicine companies advertise it as the best way to treat anemia, when for many people a different diet and lifestyle would probably work just as well. But how and why you use it is up to you.

As well as not needing a doctor's prescription (in their small print the online companies do cover themselves by saying you should tell your doctor what drugs you now use), another of the advantages, which the online companies point out about ordering from them, is the privacy aspect - only you and they know what you've received.

Sinkewitz first got into suspicion about doping when he was in the USA as a junior at a training camp.

bigdawg

i thought epo thickened up your blood...

but dangerous to sell over hte counter or mail order.. :?

skut

bigdawg wrote:

they do blood testing, to check against 'blood spinning'

That isn't the same thing as testing for drugs like testosterone

bigdawg

I know that, and I also know the German Vampires are a damn site better than the UCI ones. I think all german sportspersons that have been caught were caught by the Countries own testers, not the testers relating to the relevent sports.

iainf72

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id= ... jul20news3

Suspicions of Sinkewitz back in May which Aldag didn't follow up. Allegedly.

Dorian Gray

I have no information to back up what knedlicky is saying, but I suspect that in addition to direct sales of EPO to athletes, a significant proportion of the supposedly medicinal supplies actually end up being used by athletes. My girlfriend, who had a kidney transplant a few years ago, has a sizeable stash of the stuff. No-one monitors what she does with it, and the modern medical practice is to allow patients to use as much or as little as they wish (within safe limits). This is because when a person has control over their dosage they tend to consume less than when they have to beg their doctor for each dose. The knowledge that they can take it any time they wish eliminates the desire to take it at the first whim.

It would be trivial for me to get a steady supply of EPO from her, as she can replenish it in perpetuity almost without limits. And if she were less constrained by morals, she could sell it online to whoever she wishes. Human nature being what it is, I'm sure this happens on a large scale.