Astana hostility ......why ?

moray_gub

Ok seems to me that there is quite a bit of hostility directed at Team Astana someone even called them Team Evil lol Anyway what gives is it because they are formed from the old Liberty squad ? or maybe because they train incognito in black ? or that wee bit of hassle at last years Vuelta when Kasch and Vino missed a surprise drug test because they had left early ? or Kessler testing positive ? or Vino admitting an alliance with Dr Ferrari, or Eddy Mazzoleni or last months domination in the Duaphine ?................yea ok point taken :-)

cheers
MG

RichN95.

Well if I had to bet money on which team I thought were doping the most, I'd bet on Astana.
When T-Mobile brought in their new clean regime four riders left and went to Astana (a few ex-Phonak there too).

Plus they remind me of Chelsea (lots of big stars bought by Easten European oil money) and I can't stand Chelsea.

sing_for_absolution

All those current investigations aren't making them too popular either.

sing_for_absolution

And the breaking news is that Kessler's B-sample is positive as well.

jimmythecuckoo

RichN95 wrote:

Well if I had to bet money on which team I thought were doping the most, I'd bet on Astana.

I agree with that, the whole Vino missing a dope test at the Vuelta didn't get the exposure it warranted at the time. I suppose cycling didn't want to lose all three grand tour winners in the same season to alleged drug or drug testing related shenanigans.

I think the leading team in the Tour always faces a bit of a backlash too. I used to hate USPS/Disco when they were all conquering. It took away the unpredictability of the Tour and I think once one of their riders gets yellow you will see Astana shut up shop and the race will be over.

Stark.

I reckon the Chelsea analogy is a pretty fair one. Lots of money spent on quickly putting together a team of all-stars. Added to which, Astana does seems to have targeted a few riders with, what shall we say, a dubious whiff about them.

I hope that they don't have the resources to lock down the race once Vino or Kloeden get top spot, but I wouldn't bet against it.

monnet

All the above and the ridiculous amount of secrecy invovled in their training. And doesn't everyone else find it more than suspicious, given what we know about the Soviet sporting regime, that Vino says he likes the team and its methods as they are just like the old Soviet methods?

bigdawg

I agree with the above, but re the missed drugs test. The vampires expected the team to wait at the hotel while they got there, if they had of waited until the vampires arrived they wouldnt have had enough time to get to the race before the start.. :?

Tim Bennet

They also have a big sign in the back of their team bus that says 'Our other coach is a Ferrari'.

That's Dr Michael Ferrari who's already been sanctioned for his involvement with doping.

jimmythecuckoo

Tim Bennet wrote:

They also have a big sign in the back of their team bus that says 'Our other coach is a Ferrari'.

Boom boom!!!!!!!

iainf72

Tim Bennet wrote:

That's Dr Michael Ferrari who's already been sanctioned for his involvement with doping.

Let's be accurate now, he was found guilty in a court of law but that was overturned on appeal.

Also coached Sinkewitz, Merckx and Mick Rogers (all on T-Mobile) until last year.

Seeing as Astana is formed out of some of T-Mobile and Liberty, I'm sure they had pretty good contacts to begin with, eh?

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

Tim Bennet wrote:

That's Dr Michael Ferrari who's already been sanctioned for his involvement with doping.

Let's be accurate now, he was found guilty in a court of law but that was overturned on appeal.

Also coached Sinkewitz, Merckx and Mick Rogers (all on T-Mobile) until last year.

Seeing as Astana is formed out of some of T-Mobile and Liberty, I'm sure they had pretty good contacts to begin with, eh?

And that over turned verdict is itself being appealed by the prosecutor. The Italian legal system is a thing of beauty.

What remains clear is that he prescribed EPO and other substances to a large number of cyclists over many years.

Iain - given your propensity to leap to the defence of Ferrari at every opportunity would we be wasting our time in pursuing a theory that you are in fact the dodgy doctor himself?

iainf72

andyppro wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Tim Bennet wrote:

Iain - given your propensity to leap to the defence of Ferrari at every opportunity would we be wasting our time in pursuing a theory that you are in fact the dodgy doctor himself?

Naaah. I do think it's clear he's worked with clean(ish) people and dodgy people. Well, assuming Mick Rogers was clean(ish) in the past. I think he's got more to offer than just dopage and lets be honest, I wouldn't think Vino or someone would need him to get gear.

And he has a cool name.

iainf72

My real opinion.

I find Astana really sinister.

After the prologue I saw their team bus and it gave me the creeps. Half expected to see a horse tied to the back with its blood being extracted or something.

jimmythecuckoo

Their BMC bikes remind me of Phonak... and that isnt good either.

drenkrom

So everyone hates one team and not one of you has a reason that relates to actual racing? We keep hearing about what a sad state cycling is in. I'd say what a sad state cycling fans are in. Of course some of their riders were with shifty teams before. So were riders in most other teams. Kessler tested positive this year, but so did Mayo (for the same substance, no less) Pettachi and Piepoli. I don't see anyone blacklisting Milram or SDV. As for relations with doctors, Ferrari has the degrees to but Dr. in front of his name but is also mainly a trainer. From what I've seen, he is second to none for physiological testing and adaptation of training programs to particular riders. Has he done some shifty business? Probably, but I doubt he's alone.

Can we just look at the races and hate teams because they use questionable or disloyal tactics, or just because they're boring as hell? And if we're going to disregard the action on the road and spew suspicion, let's spread it out because others may very well merit some of it as well. Or is it the Eastern European money that makes you uncomfortable? And why would that be?

jimmythecuckoo

A good defence. So much of it is subjective though. You just look at a team and either like it or dislike it.

Astana are one such team for me that I dislike. I don't like their riders or the way they race.

Vino is a headless chicken who has no logic to the way he rides, Kloden is a robot.

So as well as the intangibles and the alleged doping reasons, there are some racing reasons for my ambivalence towards them.

As for the Eastern European money... don't want to get into that one!

timoid.

I don't think Ferrari peddles gear anymore. Too risky. And why bother when all your other knowledge is worth so much. I have no doubt however that he knows what gear Vino is on and can advise him on his training schedule accordingly.

Astana was one of the teams I saw close up at the prologue. Vino looked like ice-man, Klodi didn't want to know and the rest were robots with the exception of Il Falco, who was charming and even a little bashful and even gave me his autograph (well gave the missus his autograph). He's a rider I can't dislike. The rest you can keep.

RichN95.

As the one who brought up the Eastern European money (I know it's Asia really), it wasn't the money itself I objected to, it was just that it reminded me of Chelsea (who I've disliked for years).

drenkrom

OK, I just read Kessler's defense to the doping tests. The "packets with Chinese writing on them" defense is new, but totally ridiculous. I give you guys a few more points.

And forgive me for the total blank the football analogies bring up in my case. I'm Canadian. We speak Hockey.

campagchris

Drenkrom Im a big Vino fan so your not alone

drenkrom

Actually, I'm more fond of Kash. But I've got a soft spot for Vino.

moray_gub

drenkrom wrote:

Actually, I'm more fond of Kash. But I've got a soft spot for Vino.

I actually quite like Vino as well i only asked the Q to get a feel on why folks dislike them so much. As for Kash this could be the biggest break in his career with Klodi possibly out and Vino being patched up nearly 2 minutes back and having Savo there do do a helping job. Can he do a good time trial though ? cant recall his Vuelta TTs but i think he did a good Dauphine one.

cheers
MG

campagchris

MG, Vino has been doing lots of specific Time Trial training this year so don't write him off.The reason I like Vino is he's a fighter and he will come back fighting,as you say Kashechkin is also a great rider,a very interesting tour awaits.

moray_gub

campagchris wrote:

MG, Vino has been doing lots of specific Time Trial training this year so don't write him off.The reason I like Vino is he's a fighter and he will come back fighting,as you say Kashechkin is also a great rider,a very interesting tour awaits.

Yea i suppose if anyone can get his Tour back on track its him , he did it last year in the Vuelta after all after a bad day the day in the mountains the day Di Luca won.But he generally has a howling day in the mountains when he loses skads of time so with his injuries and having to pull back time i just cant see it.

cheers
MG