Why is steel real?

mountaincarrot

Hi.

I'm possibly in the market for a hardtail MTB Rohloff bike. The options for Rohloff specific frames are fairly limited, most (eg Thorn Enduro, or various singlespeed frames) are hand built in steel from small manufacturers.

There is all this hand -waving stuff : "Steel is real", "Zing" which seem to always come from the steel frame aficionados. I just don't get it. Steel riders out there, it's your job to please convince me.

I'm told you get useful flex from the steel which you don't get from alloy, and that makes for a more comfortable ride. By my way of thinking, the rear triangle is rigid. I can't believe that the rear stays will be compressing or flexing to any amount significant enough to really make a difference. They aren't rubber! Hey, I could get ~1mm of rear "suspension" by probably running ~1lb less tyre pressure. So what's all this magic "steel" thing? Is it hot air? If it isn't, then can someone explain in engineering terms just what flexes on a steel bike, how it does it (when it has seemingly imcompressible rear stays), and by how much?

Not that I'm biassed, I just quite like my alloy frame at the moment, and want to understand the pros & cons of steel without bullshit in case I go there.

Oh, one more thing. I want a frame which will last for years virtually without maintenance. That's another reason why alloy is possibly good. I commute off road, and don't time to wash my bike. (The running gear is the only bit of it which gets cleaned every day or two). In the 1980's I drove cars which fell to bits. - What's the chances of bad rust on a steel frame 5 or 10 years down the line when stone chips through the paint, and a more or less permanent layer of mud have done their worst?

Rgds.

AndyGates

Steel is "lively" - it doesn't so much flex as spring. Makes for a distinct character of ride which some people love. The compliance and comfort come from different vibration properties: an alu bike will drum your backside and hands numb, a steel much less so. How quickly you fatigue is the thing: if the bike is for long rides, steel is noticeably more comfy at the end; if it's for short rides, alu is just fine.

Rust isn't a problem unless you leave it outside. If you leave a Rohloff outside... I will come round and nick it before anyone else can. Really, rust from paint chips is almost universally cosmetic and no uglier than the paint-bubble you get with alu.

supersonic

You can get supple alloy frames, and harsh steel and Ti frames, its all about the construction. Alloy frames are built oversized as repeated flex weakens them prematurely.

ransos

I have a 15 year old Breezer steel frame which is rust free. Steel should last better than alloy - it has no memory effect whereas alloy can weaken over time and eventually fail. Look at all the CTC types still using their 1960s tourers - always steel.

Speaking of which I've just switched from a carbon fibre to a steel road bike frame, and it's noticeably more supple over the bumps.

Splasher

To try to understand the properties of steel and aluminium, think about rear shocks. Everyone knows that steel coil springs are heavy so why haven't we ever seen an aluminium one?

The answer is that it has a very low elastic limit. In other words you can bend steel a lot further and it will still spring back than you can aluminium. This is called elastic deformation. Beyond that, is plastic deformation where the material bends and stays bent.

What this means in practice is that designers with steel can design a frame that takes advantage of the elastic properties of the material. But as someone said earlier, there's no guarantee - you can still get poorly designed steel frames.

The memory effect talked about earlier, I assume, is fatigue. To understand fatigue, get an old teaspoon and keep bending it. Eventually it will snap - this is fatigue failure caused by micro cracks propagating.

It's true that steel has better fatigue properties than ali, but if ali was unmanageable no-one would ever fly - the wings are great big ali beams covered in ali skins. I don't want you to think about that next time you look out the window and the wings are bouncing up and down!

nicolap99

I was in the same predicament as the original poster.

My take on the subject,I've had various off road and road frames over many years covering Rocky Mountain Blizzard ; Kona Explosiv ; etc.

I had a long hard look at the Thorn Enduro, even went down to SJS Cycles to have a real close look. A few things put me off the Enduro.
Didn't like the EBB, have a search on the net for creaky units, plus deforming the EBB unit to "index" the chain tension seems a poor idea. The Rohloff cable route would be better served by the direct route down the downtube as opposed to the top tube.

The real killer for me was the bolt through seat pillar clamp, this really needs to be a quick release for sketchy descent riding.

Going custom is an option, and I have done this in the past. Looks very good on paper and allows you to design the frame etc. Usually comes with a cost penalty and a long delivery date.

I eventually decided to go for an off the shelf Rohloff OEM dropout Endorfin frame. Got the Rohloff hub built up and the frame arrives this week.

I'll keep you posted as to the progess.

caw35slr

At the risk of writing a "get what I got" reply, the Orange P7 might be an option. It's steel and has an swappable dropout (so you can fit a hozirontal one - or track fork or whatever you like to call it).The P7 web page mentions Rohloff but I don't know if it has Speedhub-specific cable guides, you'll have to ask an Orange dealer (or write Orange a letter - inexplicably they don't have an email link).

The steel frame is lovely, BTW, but I have no scientific explanation for why.

P7: http://www.orangebikes.co.uk/2007bikes/p7-pro.php

mountaincarrot

Thanks for the replies folks, Some food for thought there, and I'll check out those frames more carefully.

Nicolap: Do let us know how you get on with the Rohloff Endorfin. That was top of my wish list, but a bit pricey.

Rgds

Big Red S

caw35slr wrote:

(or write Orange a letter - inexplicably they don't have an email link).

Much of the bike industry is crap at answering e-mails anyway. Much easier to phone.01422 311 113

Aux1

mountaincarrot wrote:

Hi.
By my way of thinking, the rear triangle is rigid. I can't believe that the rear stays will be compressing or flexing to any amount significant enough to really make a difference.

Hmm I was curious once and recorded myself doing a 1.5-foot drop on my alu hardtail in 60 FPS, checked it frame by frame and saw in only one frame, as the rear wheel lands, that it kinda goes inside the reat triangle a little bit, as if the tail of the bike (or possibly the rim) was flexing... But that recording is far from professional, I couldnt' make out how much what and why, I just think I saw it

nicolap99

Hi
I have eventually built up the Endorfin and ventured out on its first ride yesterday (Saturday 21 July), I've been off the bike with a broken wrist injury for two months !!

I've owned all sorts of hardtail frames from steel to titanium and aluminum, and I can honestly say that any differences are pretty small for me.

The Endorfin rode fine in some gloopy conditions, the handling was spot on in some testing singletrack (Hidden Valley at Afan). First real time with the Rohloff , and apart from getting used to operating a twist grip everything worked very well.

Only based on a short ride due to the wrist injury (lost some of my strength ), but would recommend the Endorfin.

Some advantages that don't quite appear to be that big a deal until you are actually riding.

No chain slap.
Very clean frame lines with hardly any clutter - very easy to clean and maintain at the end of a filthy ride.
Being able to change gear stood still or freewheeling.

The noise that some people have commented on - well it can be heard in 7th gear, but you'll have to be on your own - and actually listening for it. If you are on fire road then you can (just) hear it - in singletrack it has disappeared as your concentration is else where.

Early days yet, but if the reliability is anything like its claimed ot be , then I can see me and Mr Shimano parting company (and that goes for SRAM as well).

Very good first impressions.

Have a look at the finished bike at

http://my.opera.com/nicolap99/albums/show.dml?id=310612

ddraver

love the matching red saddle dennis!!!!!

Father Faff

Looks neat!

I have seen a pic of an Orange P7 with Rohloff hub somewhere - one of the mags I think or maybe it was an Orange advert. I have a normal P7 and it was the steel "zing" of that that got me excited about MTBing again.

nutcp

Steel is the real deal, Neil.

Steel = the sensible and long-term, highly rewarding choice
Alu = the mass-market 'made in China' choice
Ti = the male-jewellery choice. Bling!!
Carbon = the all-out racer's performance choice

All materials have advantages and disadvantages in high-performance applications. You simply have to learn what the issues are and then you can make an informed and considered descision about what best suits your needs.

A good steel frame, even if not really looked after too well for several decades, will outlast all other materials. And if it does break you can get it fixed! Rust is only a problem if water gets trapped inside long-term, or if you chain it to the end of the pier all winter. Ti is supposed to last forever. So where are all the old Ti frames? Why don't we see Marin Team Ti and Kona Hei Hei or GT Xizang out on the trails? Exactly!

mountaincarrot

Hi Denis,

Thanks for the update. Nice bike! I caught up with your post on the singletrack forum as well.

Despite yours and my own doubts about the EBB, I just won a used Thorn Raven Enduro frame on Ebay. It kind of came up, and I got it. So now I'm sitting here looking at it and wondering if my main concerns about the steel remain.

It has only a few scarcely visible specks of corrosion now, but I'm still not sure whether it would cope well with year-round coatings of mud!

The Thorn is a lovely frame though, and I'm very tempted to stick with it. I think I'd go Endorfin were it not for the ££. I have no more parts for it yet, (and no Rohloff so far!).

Rgds.