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Dangerous HGVs

alanfalanf Posts: 222
edited June 2007 in Campaign
Nearly every bad accident on the motorways these days seems to have involved at least one HGV leading me to the conclusion that they need to be limited to a single lane and restricted in the times that that they can actually use the roads.
Frankly I am absolutely fed up with the dangerous and self interested driving of HGV drivers around these parts. On my journey to work I seldom see bad driving incidents by car drivers but regularly see some absolute shockers from HGVs.

I throw it open to the baying masses.
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  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    whereas, on my regular routes, I regularly see bad driving by car drivers, and seldon from HGVs.

    But I don't cycle on motorways often, I'll admit...


    "Nearly every bad accident on the motorways these days seems to have involved at least one HGV"

    Firstly, let's define 'nearly' shall we? A percentage perhaps? Then, work out the percentage of traffic at that time formed by HGVs. Only if there is a statistically significant difference between those percentages, do you have a point. And of the accidents involving HGVs, how many are due to the HGV driver, and how many are due to other drivers?

    And 'bad' - also needs definition. Fatal? I'd be more concerned about lot of 'minor' accidents involving car drivers, than one 'bad' one involving an HGV - due to their bigger size, they are bound to do more damage, in an accident a car driver might get away with more lightly.

    Yes, there are some bad HGV drivers. But I suspect there are many more bad car drivers, and they pose more of a threat to vulnerable people like cyclists and pedestrians...

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

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  • MelvilMelvil Posts: 2,219
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I have to say I agree with redders. More haulage capacity, faster speeds and less paid drivers for each kilo of cargo. The only problem is you cannot 'deliver to the door' but I'm sure a fleet of rent-a-trucks at distribution nodes on the network would solve that.

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  • SmeggersSmeggers Posts: 1,019
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Melvil</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I have to say I agree with redders. More haulage capacity, faster speeds and less paid drivers for each kilo of cargo. The only problem is you cannot 'deliver to the door' but I'm sure a fleet of rent-a-trucks at distribution nodes on the network would solve that.

    <font color="purple">******************************************************************************</font id="purple">
    <b><font color="green">See</font id="green"><font color="orange"> baby </font id="orange"><font color="blue">Elephants </font id="blue"><font color="red"> and more at</font id="red">:</b> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Utopia's a wonderful place

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    A baby elephant ran up the clock,
    The clock is being repaired</font id="size1">
    <font size="1">Hickory Dickory Dock,
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  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Smeggers, this is not a utopian demand, its plain common sense and easily achievable. The networks exist, there could be a public works program initiated to reintegrate the old branch lines that were closed down years ago.

    Its only a question of political will.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
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  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Arch</i>


    But I don't cycle on motorways often, I'll admit...



    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Glad to hear it.
  • gavintcgavintc Posts: 3,009
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Sadly, we have not invested in our permanent way (tracks) to keep up with the demand. In addition, UK is unique amongst the western European nations in giving passenger traffic absolute priority over routes leading to extensive delays for freight movement. In addition, having been a pioneering rail nation, we built our tunnels/bridges without the benefit of hindsight and they are rather small for decent freight movement. Europe was slower on the uptake of rail and learnt from our lessons. Hence, the tunnels are considerably bigger.

    But, I agree with the statement that redcogs has made.

    Turning to the original poster, an equally sound proposal is to restrict all non-LGV traffic to one lane and keep the motorways as freight roads with limited car access. Personally, I think the current road sharing system works. Freight is the life blood of the country.
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Smeggers</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Melvil</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I have to say I agree with redders. More haulage capacity, faster speeds and less paid drivers for each kilo of cargo. The only problem is you cannot 'deliver to the door' but I'm sure a fleet of rent-a-trucks at distribution nodes on the network would solve that.

    <font color="purple">******************************************************************************</font id="purple">
    <b><font color="green">See</font id="green"><font color="orange"> baby </font id="orange"><font color="blue">Elephants </font id="blue"><font color="red"> and more at</font id="red">:</b> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Utopia's a wonderful place

    <font size="1">Hickory Dickory Dock,
    A baby elephant ran up the clock,
    The clock is being repaired</font id="size1">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Only for those that have defined it. I have a feeling that Redcogs Utopia would be my hell!
  • bofbof Posts: 372
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alanf</i>

    Nearly every bad accident on the motorways these days seems to have involved at least one HGV leading me to the conclusion that they need to be limited to a single lane and restricted in the times that that they can actually use the roads.

    I throw it open to the baying masses.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Where's the evidence, other than your prejudice?
    The artist formally known as boring old fart
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alanf</i>

    Nearly every bad accident on the motorways these days seems to have involved at least one HGV leading me to the conclusion that they need to be limited to a single lane and restricted in the times that that they can actually use the roads.
    Frankly I am absolutely fed up with the dangerous and self interested driving of HGV drivers around these parts. On my journey to work I seldom see bad driving incidents by car drivers but regularly see some absolute shockers from HGVs.

    I throw it open to the baying masses.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Next time look at the plates on the HGV, seems like a lot of foreign drivers flout the laws, on time driving , overloading etc. and half have safety defects. From the Times

    http://murl.se/26067

    let's be safe out there.

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  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    Only for those that have defined it. I have a feeling that Redcogs Utopia would be my hell!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You simply lack imagination Joe.

    All freight by rail and canal with local distribution by HGVs is an achievable reform.

    Democratic equalitarian collectivism is also achievable but might take a little longer.

    The problem is that freight by rail and canal is unlikely to happen until the democratic collective component is in place. Capitalism usually takes the cheap route.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • YorkshiremanYorkshireman Posts: 999
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    Only for those that have defined it. I have a feeling that Redcogs Utopia would be my hell!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You simply lack imagination Joe.

    <font color="red">All freight by rail and canal with local distribution by HGVs is an achievable reform.</font id="red">

    Democratic equalitarian collectivism is also achievable but might take a little longer.

    The problem is that freight by rail and canal is unlikely to happen until the democratic collective component is in place. Capitalism usually takes the cheap route.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I can remember a time when British Rail (or whatever it was called then) had their own fleet of light/medium goods vehicle (anyone remember the 3 wheeled Scammel artic [:D]). There was also BRS (British Road Services). What happened to it all, where did it all go?



    Colin N.


    Lincolnshire is mostly flat... but the wind is mostly in your face!
    Colin N.


    Lincolnshire is mostly flat... but the wind is mostly in your face!
  • alanfalanf Posts: 222
    A couple of points in reply. As to Evidence it is mainly anecdotal, but take yesterday, M25 closed J10-11 accident involving 2 HGVs and 5 cars, Friday A14 HGV and 2 cars, a couple of days before the same again on the Orwell Bridge it goes on and on. I define a bad accident as one where the road is shut off to allow the emergency services to attend. Also if an HGV driver makes a mistake they have a higher percentage chance of doing serious damage with your 38 tonnes bit like stopping a supertanker really.

    As to foreign drivers i find from my experiences that it is the local GB firms who are by far the worst.
    DOOOOOOOOOOOOUGHNUTS!!!
    I like
    DOOOOOOOOOOOOUGHNUTS!!!
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by alanf</i>

    A couple of points in reply. As to Evidence it is mainly anecdotal, but take yesterday, M25 closed J10-11 accident involving 2 HGVs and 5 cars, Friday A14 HGV and 2 cars, a couple of days before the same again on the Orwell Bridge it goes on and on.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


    Hmm. Of course, there's another common factor in those two accidents. Cars. More cars in fact, than HGVs, if your figures are correct. 3 HGVs, 7 cars. Applying your kind of stats, that makes cars more than twice as likely to be in an accident. Without knowing the causes and exact circumstances in each case, your evidence is not really statistically valid...

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
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  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    I would place the driving skills of your average British HGV driver far above those of the average British motorist.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    I would place the driving skills of your average British HGV driver far above those of the average British motorist.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Seconded. One's a professional driver and the other is an amateur.
  • Rigid RaiderRigid Raider Posts: 1,568
    Having driven a lorry for a few weeks I can tell you that it is the most exhausting job ever invented. You have to concentrate 100% of the time and read the road three times further ahead than you do as a car driver. You suddenly become gratefully attentive to triangular warning signs and horribly aware that lorry airbrakes will lock the wheels and send you into a skid if you try to drive like a car driver, braking your way out of trouble. In 3 weeks I had 2 near misses due to my own inexperience and I used to get home absolutely physically and mentally knackered.

    Add in a few dozy idiot car and white van drivers, a fair percentage of whom have never sat a driving test but got a pal to do it for them and you can see why lorries are so often involved in accidents caused by other drivers.

    Global TH1.5 Ti hardtail.
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  • top_bhoytop_bhoy Posts: 1,423
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cretin</i>

    I would place the driving skills of your average British HGV driver far above those of the average British motorist.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    From personal experience that is a load of Bollocks!!

    Not that car drivers are any better but those bas****s in their HGVs don't mind sitting 3 feet from your rear bumper....with consequences which don't bear thinking about sometimes!!

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  • bofbof Posts: 372
    Evidence

    Cars in the UK are driven 397bn Kms per annum, HGVs 29bn Kms per annum (2005)

    In the same year HGVs killed 54 pedestrians and cars 356, so per mile driven, a ped is twice as likely to get killed by an HGV. However taking Serious Injuries 4561 pedestrian casualties were caused by cars and 138 by HGVs, so per mile driven 2.5 times LESS likely in an HGV. The proportion is even bigger in the HGV's favour with minor injuries.

    These and other figures out of the official statistics point to HGVs having less accidents but more severe outcomes than cars.

    http://www.dft.gov.uk/162259/162469/221 ... itain2005a
    The artist formally known as boring old fart
  • ArchcpArchcp Posts: 8,987
    Thank you bof, that's the sort of maths I meant, but didn't bother to look up...

    I suppose it's like comparing parachuting and football.. Hundreds/thousands of people injure themselves playing football every year, often just sprains or grazes. Few people injure themselves parachuting, but accidents tend to be fatal. Although you'd have to calculate miles travelled per person... Not sure how far the average footy player travels per game. Not so far for the goalie, I think...

    Sorry, wandered off for a moment there...

    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
    If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
  • Russell_johnRussell_john Posts: 602
    I travelled the M25 ever day for 5 years and I have seen countless accidents involving LHD HGVs - lots of side colissions caused by them not having the visibility to pull out right...

    Scary when you see an MX5 being driven over by an artic. Not pretty

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Arch</i>

    Few people injure themselves parachuting, but accidents tend to be fatal. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Statistics show that it's the last inch of the journey which is most dangerous.
  • bofbof Posts: 372
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Russell_john</i>

    I travelled the M25 ever day for 5 years and I have seen countless accidents involving LHD HGVs - lots of side colissions caused by them not having the visibility to pull out right...

    Scary when you see an MX5 being driven over by an artic. Not pretty

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    What, they dont have mirrors on the RHS?


    More likely explanation is tiredness, plus in most continental countries drivers push in and out of lane much more aggressively on motorways than here (incidentally UK motorways are per mile driven on them amongst the safest roads on the planet).
    The artist formally known as boring old fart
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Melvil</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Back to the railways for all distribution is a partial answer.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I have to say I agree with redders. More haulage capacity, faster speeds and less paid drivers for each kilo of cargo. The only problem is you cannot 'deliver to the door' but I'm sure a fleet of rent-a-trucks at distribution nodes on the network would solve that.

    <font color="purple">******************************************************************************</font id="purple">
    <b><font color="green">See</font id="green"><font color="orange"> baby </font id="orange"><font color="blue">Elephants </font id="blue"><font color="red"> and more at</font id="red">:</b> http://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    trouble is, that during the 70's and 80's 50% of the railway network was removed, including many goods depots.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Smeggers, this is not a utopian demand, its plain common sense and easily achievable. The networks exist, there could be a public works program initiated to reintegrate the old branch lines that were closed down years ago.

    Its only a question of political will.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    40% of original branch lines have either been built on or used for road widening
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Russell_john</i>

    I travelled the M25 ever day for 5 years and I have seen countless accidents involving LHD HGVs - lots of side colissions caused by them not having the visibility to pull out right...

    Scary when you see an MX5 being driven over by an artic. Not pretty

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


    simple answer really, the trailer is brought over on the channel tunnel / ferry and a right hand drive truck cab is used to pull it off the ferry and deliver it to where its going.
  • SmeggersSmeggers Posts: 1,019
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
    Only for those that have defined it. I have a feeling that Redcogs Utopia would be my hell!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You simply lack imagination Joe.

    All freight by rail and canal with local distribution by HGVs is an achievable reform.

    Democratic equalitarian collectivism is also achievable but might take a little longer.

    The problem is that freight by rail and canal is unlikely to happen until the democratic collective component is in place. Capitalism usually takes the cheap route.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Tell you what, I'll supply the "Democratic equalitarian collectivism" and you supply the Million Billion Pounds? Deal?

    <font size="1">Hickory Dickory Dock,
    A baby elephant ran up the clock,
    The clock is being repaired</font id="size1">
    <font size="1">Hickory Dickory Dock,
    A baby elephant ran up the clock,
    The clock is being repaired</font id="size1">
  • Russell_johnRussell_john Posts: 602
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bof</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Russell_john</i>

    I travelled the M25 ever day for 5 years and I have seen countless accidents involving LHD HGVs - lots of side colissions caused by them not having the visibility to pull out right...

    Scary when you see an MX5 being driven over by an artic. Not pretty

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    What, they dont have mirrors on the RHS?


    More likely explanation is tiredness, plus in most continental countries drivers push in and out of lane much more aggressively on motorways than here (incidentally UK motorways are per mile driven on them amongst the safest roads on the planet).
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    traffic is certainly more agressive in the M25 than other roads but I think it's down to visibility - it's hard to sit on the left hand side of a cab and judge how fast a car is coming towards you on the right. Also small cars seem to get 'hidden' in the space between the front wheelarch of the cab back to the fifth wheel.

    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
    are they wibbin me Centurwion?
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