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Loathsome Brown's 'doublethink' on education

spirespire Posts: 4,077
edited August 2007 in Campaign
Key point on Education from the Cheshire cat's acceptance speech:

Businesses, universities, colleges and the voluntary sector will be brought together to improve education, he said.

"Every secondary school - trusts, specialists or academies - linked to a business, every school linked to a college or university.

"Step by step we will raise investment in state school pupils - now œ5,500 per pupil - to today's levels for private school pupils: œ8,000 a year."




So why not just hand the whole thing over to private schools as their track record is somewhat better than government's?

Answer, of course, is that meddling Socialists need to control education to meet their social engineering agenda.
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  • Of course, if you're going to match funding, you could go the whole hog and introduce a voucher scheme and effectively merge the state and private sector. This would enable Labour politicians to send their children to private schools with a clear conscience.
  • simoncpsimoncp Posts: 3,260
    So Labour are going to spend more and more of cash on education. That is hardly news. Labour always spend more and more of our cash on everything.

    As usual, all the extra cash will be wasted.
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simoncp</i>

    So Labour are going to spend more and more of cash on education. That is hardly news. Labour always spend more and more of our cash on everything.

    As usual, all the extra cash will be wasted.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Not necessarily, it tends to result in higher salaries for Labour voters.
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    (This is also one of the reasons redcogs and gillan are so anti-grammar schools!)
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    No, it would mean more work for teachers, some 70% of whom vote Labour.
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    We all know that the money will largely, if not wholly, be wasted, the NHS providing the perfect example for this. Perhaps the right idea would be to run all schools on the lines of the established public schools. It might work so long as no businesses were allowed to get involved as they would simply seek to make money. The key thing would be to dismantle education-associated government bureaucracy to ensure that less cash was swallowed up in nugatory admin.
  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - <b>an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.</b>
    (This is also one of the reasons redcogs and gillan are so anti-grammar schools!)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    not if ethics and morality were taught [;)]
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Mugatory? Graet idea ankev - But it has to be a prosperous one without legal connections - to make it worth the risk. Whas spire's address?

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • willskiwillski Posts: 730
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    (This is also one of the reasons redcogs and gillan are so anti-grammar schools!)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    OK..... so why is David Cameron anti-grammar schools?


    ___________________________________________________________________

    If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
    If I had a baby elephant, I\'d write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
  • PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 703
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    No, it would mean more work for teachers, some 70% of whom vote Labour.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    More work for teachers? Teachers don't want more work! At the moment, as well as our teaching duties (which we get paid for), we are also babystitters, behavioural pychologists, experts in conflict resolution and bureaucrats. We don't get extra money for this, because if we did, our salaries would bankrupt the Exchequer.

    Oh I forgot, we are solely responsible for children's morals, parent behaviour, stopping children living on Fried chicken... and I believe that Alan Johnson will soon require us to teach children how to hold a knife and fork and comport themselves properly at the dinner table. I am not joking.

    One thing I will say for Tony Blair, is that he was probably the first PM since the 1950s to realise that maybe education is a bit important, and that to get decent teachers you might have to pay them fairly.
    Dave
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by willski</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    (This is also one of the reasons redcogs and gillan are so anti-grammar schools!)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    OK..... so why is David Cameron anti-grammar schools?


    ___________________________________________________________________

    If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't believe he is - he's playing to the gallery at the moment. Disappointing.
  • Joe SaccoJoe Sacco Posts: 4,907
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pizzaman</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    No, it would mean more work for teachers, some 70% of whom vote Labour.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    More work for teachers? Teachers don't want more work! At the moment, as well as our teaching duties (which we get paid for), we are also babystitters, behavioural pychologists, experts in conflict resolution and bureaucrats. We don't get extra money for this, because if we did, our salaries would bankrupt the Exchequer.

    Oh I forgot, we are solely responsible for children's morals, parent behaviour, stopping children living on Fried chicken...

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I see all the things you list as part and parcel of teaching. What do you want to do just read out from a book, set some exercises and go home?
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Tories who support grammar schools are "delusional".

    i don't think Cameron is a liar.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    redcogs

    What are you so keen to keep the working class in their place?

    Let the brightest blossum and grow.

    Of course, the trouble with this is that every successful working class person is lost from your fold.

    Ah yes, that's why you want to keep them down!
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    redcogs

    What are you so keen to keep the working class in their place?

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    So it can be believed that they are kept down by the evil capitalist bosses.
  • willskiwillski Posts: 730
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by willski</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    (This is also one of the reasons redcogs and gillan are so anti-grammar schools!)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    OK..... so why is David Cameron anti-grammar schools?


    ___________________________________________________________________

    If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I don't believe he is - he's playing to the gallery at the moment. Disappointing.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Oh I see. So he's lying then?

    ____________________________________________________________________

    If I had a baby elephant, I'd write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
    If I had a baby elephant, I\'d write a witty sig line about it - if I had any wit.
  • redcogsredcogs Posts: 3,232
    Cameron seems to be an exceptionally good judge of character and quite without the usual Tory predisposition towards economy of truth.

    Please spell dillusional.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by willski</i>


    Oh I see. So he's lying then?

    ____________________________________________________________________

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    He's wooing.

    Even seems to be giving redcogs a bit of a flutter![:0][:D]
  • PizzamanPizzaman Posts: 703
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Joe Sacco</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Pizzaman</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Of course, deep down, Labour is terrified of genuinely raising educational standards - an educated working-class wouldn't know their place and would probably vote Tory.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    No, it would mean more work for teachers, some 70% of whom vote Labour.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    More work for teachers? Teachers don't want more work! At the moment, as well as our teaching duties (which we get paid for), we are also babystitters, behavioural pychologists, experts in conflict resolution and bureaucrats. We don't get extra money for this, because if we did, our salaries would bankrupt the Exchequer.

    Oh I forgot, we are solely responsible for children's morals, parent behaviour, stopping children living on Fried chicken...

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I see all the things you list as part and parcel of teaching. What do you want to do just read out from a book, set some exercises and go home?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Um, no... if I wanted to do that I wouldn't have become a teacher. I am saying that inventing headline grabbing initiatives every other week merely pulls teachers away from what they are there to do, and gives them less time to focus on the vital areas of teaching children to read, write and interact positively with the world around them.

    I believe that it has become an easy way out to say that absolute responsibility over the 'homelife' facets of growing up should fall at the feet of teachers. If you could only know how many times I have seen parents come into school fully believing that any behavioural problems that their offspring are displaying are the school's problem, and responsibility to sort out, you would be amazed.
    Dave
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by willski</i>


    Oh I see. So he's lying then?

    ____________________________________________________________________

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    He's wooing.

    Even seems to be giving redcogs a bit of a flutter![:0][:D]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    The lefties have a deep down respect for someone they sense is posh. [;)][;)]
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    The lefties have a deep down respect for someone they sense is posh. [;)][;)]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    And they loathe jumped-up successful persons formerly working-class!
    (Hence redcogs' preference for Eton Cameron over council house Davis in the leadership contest.)
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>

    The lefties have a deep down respect for someone they sense is posh. [;)][;)]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    And they loathe jumped-up successful persons formerly working-class!
    (Hence redcogs' preference for Eton Cameron over council house Davis in the leadership contest.)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yes, you could imagine redders becoming Cameron's butler, but he'd never do it for Davis. [;)]
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>
    And they loathe jumped-up successful persons formerly working-class!
    (Hence redcogs' preference for Eton Cameron over council house Davis in the leadership contest.)
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I think you'll find redcogs' only real preference in this contest was to see which one he'd put up against the wall first...

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
    Gonna get my Ph.D.
    I'm a teenage lobotomy

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Patrick Stevens</i>



    Yes, you could imagine redders becoming Cameron's butler, but he'd never do it for Davis. [;)]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Quite. He'd like Davis down the pit doing a job befitting his working class roots.
  • gillan1969gillan1969 Posts: 3,119
    spire

    if only the tories woud have some moral and ethical consistency

    the fact is selective education conveys advantages to some at the expense of others...those at private schools (or selective schools) are in effect subsidised goods...gaining an unfair edge in the market place

    if it were a market place the office of fair trading would have closed it down long ago

    you seem to think that beacuse a few people gain then this is the the benefit of the whole...how so??

    once again the rich screwing everyone over to protect their own, (rather thick it would appear) offspring

    subsidy junkies

    spire...the arthur scargill of the classroom



    www.squadraporcini.com
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    gillan

    We've drifted a bit off topic. Did you actually read the OP?

    What I'm asking is why doesn't Brown give the whole job of education to the private sector if he's prepared to spend the same amount per head?

    No arguments from you about unfairness then.

    Of course the Socialists will never take their sticky fingers out of the education pie - they can't resist the social control aspect (and, as previously mentioned, they are terrified of an independently educated working class who must KNOW THEIR PLACE!).
  • gillan1969gillan1969 Posts: 3,119
    eh....because the private sector is very good at many things but education is not one of them

    re off topic

    yes you strayed to linking th anti private/selective school systyem to being an attempt to 'gerrymander' if you like

    as i say this i find rich from a self intersst group comprising...eh....the landed gentry and there minions and aspirants

    you i would construe as an aspirant[:)]

    www.squadraporcini.com
  • RegulatorRegulator Posts: 417
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by redcogs</i>

    Cameron seems to be an exceptionally good judge of character and quite without the usual Tory predisposition towards economy of truth.

    Please spell dillusional.

    <font size="1">please look up to the stars.. </font id="size1"><font size="6"><font color="red">***</font id="red"></font id="size6">
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">



    I think you'll find it's spelt 'delusional'... [;)]

    ___________________________
    censored elephants - capabari are cuter!
    ___________________________
    censored elephants - capabari are cuter!
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by gillan1969</i>

    eh....because the private sector is very good at many things but education is not one of them

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    [?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?][?]

    But you're always banging on about the unfair advantages privately educated people enjoy...

    ...perplexed.
  • gillan1969gillan1969 Posts: 3,119
    spire

    should have been more specific for your hams......oh stop there[:)][:)]

    sorry was refering to allowing the private sector to involve itself in providing education per se...I'm with adam smith on what the private serctor should and should not do and education is definatley a not

    of course if you have a small section of the market being run privately its not really a good indication of its real benefit or efficiency as its intake is not representative

    they coach pupils to pass exams rather than educate them in a wider sense, they select their own pupils, they create a 'network' of ex-pupils who work for each others advantage etc etc etc

    doesn't really provide us with the basis for working out its efficiency does it

    www.squadraporcini.com
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