WHO WANTS TO SCRAP ROAD TAX???

The Endorser · June 2007

I'd be up for scrapping it and putting it of fuel - I own a high performance car and get the hairy shaft of government taxation shoved firmly between my nethers, despite doing less and less miles a year (I reckon i'm down to c.4k p/a in that car now), so why am being penalised for œ230 per yar when my fiancee, who drives a smaller car but does 14k miles a year, pays only œ35 annual road tax?

Scrap the lot, stick it on fuel pro rata so the average 10.5k miles a year driver breaks even, job done, go home.

My car - 4000 miles/33mpg = 121 gallons of Iraqi SUV juice per year.
T'other arf 14000 miles/61mpg = 229.5 gallons of sparker juice.

So why am I the one getting anally reamed by Gordon Blair?

stick it on fuel and make a direct correlation between vehicl usge and tax - why is the Government so scared to do this? This alone would be a huge vote grabber.

Eating baby elephants since 1969

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Endorser

I'd be up for scrapping it and putting it of fuel - I own a high performance car and get the hairy shaft of government taxation shoved firmly between my nethers, despite doing less and less miles a year (I reckon i'm down to c.4k p/a in that car now), so why am being penalised for œ230 per yar when my fiancee, who drives a smaller car but does 14k miles a year, pays only œ35 annual road tax?

Scrap the lot, stick it on fuel pro rata so the average 10.5k miles a year driver breaks even, job done, go home.

My car - 4000 miles/33mpg = 121 gallons of Iraqi SUV juice per year.
T'other arf 14000 miles/61mpg = 229.5 gallons of sparker juice.

So why am I the one getting anally reamed by Gordon Blair?

stick it on fuel and make a direct correlation between vehicl usge and tax - why is the Government so scared to do this? This alone would be a huge vote grabber.

Eating baby elephants since 1969
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VED on fuel has nothing to do with trying to make people go green in their car useage !

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

The Endorser · June 2007

Absolutley mate - it's all about raising money to keep illegal immigrants and 'asylum seekers', unmarried unemployed mothers and lazy criminals in council houses, whilst our navyy is so cash straped our aircraft carriers cn run on only one engin as they can't afford the fuel.

Put me in charge - i'll sort it.

Eating baby elephants since 1969

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by _Bonj_

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator

It was scrapped years ago whizzkid (1974 I think).

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NO need to be so pedantic, it's a valid point. We do pay lots of money in road tax and don't see much for it.
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What you get for your road tax is permission to use on the public roads a dangerous piece of machinery that poisons the air we all breathe. How the Govenment spends the money is neither here nor there.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

Anonymous · June 2007

I do as it's up at the end of the month

Non Omnis Moriar

RichardD · June 2007

I also say scrap VED. It's regressive and once it's paid doesn't rise or fall for the distance driven. Put the cost onto fuel duty. Put the enforcement effort into something that might actually be useful like chasing uninsured and unroadworthy vehicles or unlicensed drivers.

dondare · June 2007

One point about VED is that it allows the government to keep tabs on car owners. The licence provides a link between the vehicle and it's owner which isn't otherwise available.
The other point is that it indicates that motor-vehicles are only permitted to use the public roads under licence. To remove it and raise duty on fuel would be the comparable to scrapping FACs and putting an extra tax on bullets; it might raise as much money but removes a degree of govt. control.

"da sapienti et addetur ei sapientia doce iustum et festinabit accipere."

The Endorser · June 2007

Except that I can tell you first hand that any villain worth their salt buys their cars cash in the paper, cash at auction or just plain steals them) so the vehicle licence is no use for tracking villains - it's only of use for tracking honest taxpayers who are already getting screwed.
There are so many untaxed vehicles (take walk round thorplands inNorthampton one night if you don't believe me) that the government have no control anyway. It's simply about revenue. When the DVLa have an enorcement crackdown the soundbites in the local media are always about the millions in lost revenue - never about the government maintaining control of vehccles on the road.

Eating baby elephants since 1969

Simon L2 · June 2007

11% of cars haven't got the proper tax discs - I think that's about 2 million cars.

Fuel tax is more difficult to evade.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX
Double the price of petrol, and put up the cost of everything in the UK?
No thanks.
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or persuade people to make more sensible choices? Let's recall, for a moment, why 'mad cow disease' spread throughout the UK in days.
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You mean Foot and Mouth?

Anyway, MattBlackBigBoysBMX, perhaps we should just increase the privce of petrol to private motorists. In this day and age, it shouldn't be beyond the system for hauliers/delivery companies to have a card entitling them to one price of fuel, while private cars pay another. The traffic congestion I see appears to be mostly private cars, usually with one person in them...

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
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I'm almost inclined to agree with you there Arch, except it is a little too simplistic a solution. Lots of people have to use cars to get to work, or even just to get about due to their location.
Also, where I live most of the congestion is caused by HGVs (we are fortunate in having a decent bus service for commuters), normally when they crash/fall over. Don't forget that a lot of people who travel alone are doing so for business.

That and I pay too bloody much for fuel as it is![:D]

Wheelies ARE cool.

Jaded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

Lots of people have to use cars to get to work, or even just to get about due to their location.
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That situation has only arisen because private transport is too cheap. It is a fallacy to then use it to justify cheap private transport.

It goes back to what Simon L2 said - make it more expensive and people will make different choices.

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

Lots of people have to use cars to get to work, or even just to get about due to their location.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That situation has only arisen because private transport is too cheap. It is a fallacy to then use it to justify cheap private transport.

It goes back to what Simon L2 said - make it more expensive and people will make different choices.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
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Private transport is too cheap for what though?[?]

Wheelies ARE cool.

Jaded · June 2007

For society, the community, the environment and the good of the country.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

What are you suggesting instead though, that we return to a simpler way of life and live off the land?
Serious question, I really can't see what it is that you are actually suggesting in place of what we have.[?]

Wheelies ARE cool.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox
...

VED on fuel has nothing to do with trying to make people go green in their car useage !

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Here we go again!

VED helps to influence consumer choices in a more subtle way that achieves greater change than the revenue equivalent increase in fuel price would do.

Consumers respond more to one-off payments than to the same cost spread out over lots of small payments- its a hit in the pocket that has to be budgeted for. The fact that a car has a higher rate of VED is also a reminded that it is a lower mpg vehicle.

And before we hear the same old pleas that VED makes no difference because the well-off don't care, VED also influences the second hand market. So if a car is less popular in the second hand market then its residual value falls, and hence the depreciation for the first time buyer increases, increasing the whole life cost of that car. With nearly half of all cars being bought by company car fleets, which use WLC in their procurement policies, you have a direct impact on a very significant chunk of the new car market.

And if you don't believe me that VED has an effect, you might want to take note of this person:

Alison Chapman, a tax partner at Deloitte, believes the changes could have a big impact on sales of company cars. "These changes may not influence the sale of new high emission cars to a retail customer, however the effect on companies is likely to be very different," she said.
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"A drop in anticipated resale value, plus the increased annual cost, can have a big effect on the whole life cost to the company, which is then less likely to want to add these cars to its fleet," Ms Chapman said

Reported in the Telegraph shortly after the budget.

snorri · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

That and I pay too bloody much for fuel as it is![:D]
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What do you mean by this[?]
Do you know of a cheaper more convenient way of getting yourself, family and assorted luggage around at any hour of the day or night[?]

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

That and I pay too bloody much for fuel as it is![:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What do you mean by this[?]
Do you know of a cheaper more convenient way of getting yourself, family and assorted luggage around at any hour of the day or night[?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To reply in reverse, certainly not by public transport!
(where is this "integrated public transport system" you promised us Mr. Politician?)

As to your first question, I simply do not agree with levels of taxation that are that high for anything, with the possible exception of cigarettes. I believe it is harmful to our economy, and it has seen businesses either close or move abroad.

Wheelies ARE cool.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX
...I believe it is harmful to our economy, and it has seen businesses either close or move abroad.

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As ever, the usual question every time someone asserts something as fact: can you give us some figures to back that up?

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

Exactly what figures do you want me to produce?
The company I work for has lost work to the continent due to increasing costs brought on by high fuel duty.
Would you like to see our order books?

I find your request particularly audacious considering the justification you use for your previous post is a quote of someones opininon!

It's not rocket science; everything you buy in this country arrives by road, including our beloved bikes, and upping fuel duty will increase the cost of everything.

If you are that keen on your figures, what percentage of company cars currently on the road will fall into the highest tax bracket?

Wheelies ARE cool.

mjones · June 2007

What figures? Well, some reliable figures for business lost to the continent because of fuel prices for a start. There are lots of reasons why businesses succeed and fail. Anecdotal claims such as yours are usually exaggerated- the cost of fuel has been a convenient thing for hauliers to use as something to blame the problems their industry faces from over-competition driving down margins and standards. Only a comparatively small percentage of haulage within the UK is carried out by trucks using foreign bought fuel. And only a very small part of the price of goods in this country is the cost of transport.

You missed the point about the quote I provided earlier, which was from someone in an accountancy firm who was asked to comment because of their knowledge of fleet finance. So it was an informed opinion, an expert opinion, not just the opinion of someone on the internet.

And as for you last question, well in new car sales Band G is "down to a 7.5% share compared to one of 11.% in 2005.". From SMMT.

Jaded · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

What are you suggesting instead though, that we return to a simpler way of life and live off the land?
Serious question, I really can't see what it is that you are actually suggesting in place of what we have.[?]

Wheelies ARE cool.
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Yup - make it black or white, why don't you.

You can't see because you won't see. Quite soon you'll have to see.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

What are you suggesting instead though, that we return to a simpler way of life and live off the land?
Serious question, I really can't see what it is that you are actually suggesting in place of what we have.[?]

Wheelies ARE cool.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yup - make it black or white, why don't you.

You can't see because you won't see. Quite soon you'll have to see.

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
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I might be able to see if you pointed my eyes in the right direction!
Honestly, I still don't know what you are suggesting?

Wheelies ARE cool.

Jaded · June 2007

I rest my case.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

Jaded · June 2007

Tell you what.

Just for once, try looking life from a completely different perspective. You might then begin to see.

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[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one

snorri · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

To reply in reverse, certainly not by public transport!
(where is this "integrated public transport system" you promised us Mr. Politician?)

As to your first question, I simply do not agree with levels of taxation that are that high for anything, with the possible exception of cigarettes. I believe it is harmful to our economy, and it has seen businesses either close or move abroad.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You seem to accept then that public transport is expensive relative to private transport, so do you now accept that you are not so badly off with your present fuel bill[?]
One of the reasons for the lack of integrated transport is the lack of money. Where do you suggest the money comes from[?] Is it sensible to continue subsidising the motorist which in turn encourages more car use, or should we be investing greater sums in integrated transport[?]

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

Looks like I've stirred up a bit of a hornets nest. I'll reply one at a time, I'm no good with this multiple quoting malarky.[:)]

Wheelies ARE cool.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones
And as for you last question, well in new car sales Band G is "down to a 7.5% share compared to one of 11.% in 2005.". From SMMT.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yet further down it states:

"The new MINI Cooper for example, built in Oxford, is 19% better on fuel economy with 16% lower CO2 emissions than its predecessor, Halewood's Land Rover Freelander2 petrol boasts a 10% improvement on fuel consumption and emissions over the model it replaced, while a new range of fuel-efficient diesel models has helped Jaguar cut average tailpipe CO2 by 31.5% since 1997."

This goes against your quoted expert's opinion that companies might buy different cars due to the increasing VED, it suggests that they are buying the same cars which now happen to be in a lower band.
Hence one of my previous comments about looking at raw data rather than compiled statistics. As someone that uses statistics I am all too aware of their ability to manipulate.[;)]

Wheelies ARE cool.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MattBlackBigBoysBMX

To reply in reverse, certainly not by public transport!
(where is this "integrated public transport system" you promised us Mr. Politician?)

As to your first question, I simply do not agree with levels of taxation that are that high for anything, with the possible exception of cigarettes. I believe it is harmful to our economy, and it has seen businesses either close or move abroad.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You seem to accept then that public transport is expensive relative to private transport, so do you now accept that you are not so badly off with your present fuel bill[?]
One of the reasons for the lack of integrated transport is the lack of money. Where do you suggest the money comes from[?] Is it sensible to continue subsidising the motorist which in turn encourages more car use, or should we be investing greater sums in integrated transport[?]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Getting very political now, but....

...I never said I was "badly off". I can afford the fuel I use same as I can afford the Pinot Grigio that I drink, but you make it sound that it is by virtue of miracle that other countries with lower fuel duty can exist at all.
This is patently not the case.
Subsidising the motorist? How the hell do you work that out?
I suggest that the government ceases to subsidise it's unemployment figures by cutting down on the grossly overpopulated public sector.
If these people had real jobs we could probably afford better public transport. The percentage of people that receive a large portion of their income from the government is dangerously high.
I'm paying more in tax than I ever have done, yet I receive less benefits as a result of it!
It's not a lack of money, it's a lack of common sense in the people spending it.

Case in point: Huntingdon - Cambridge guided bus scheme.
Residents don't want it, commuters don't need it, even the designer of the guided bus said it wasn't suitable for that application, yet millions are going to be wasted on it.

Wheelies ARE cool.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jaded

Tell you what.

Just for once, try looking life from a completely different perspective. You might then begin to see.

--
[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've asked really nicely for an explanation of exactly what it is you are suggesting more than once.
You don't have to tell me if you don't want to, but it really does put an end to the discussion!

Yours, bemused,[:D]

Matt Black.[:)]

Wheelies ARE cool.

snorri · June 2007

"Getting political", but that is inevitable, transport issues are decided by our politicians. Comparing with other countries only clouds the issue, road tolling is not uncommon overseas for example. Regarding subsidy,the private motorist is subsidised in the same way that a pensioner gets subsidised bus travel. The pensioner does not get a payment towards bus fares, but does not pay the full cost of the fare. Likewise motorists do not pay the full cost to the nation of motoring.
I think you are taking the p***[:D]

WHO WANTS TO SCRAP ROAD TAX???

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