Light touring on a road bike

goldsmith_robert · June 2007

It the old "conveting the road bike without eyelets into a light tourer" debate (again)

Option 1) P-clips to stays and usual rack / ortleibs: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/ProductDetail.aspx?Cat=cycle&ProdID=5360007220&N=TorTec%20P-ClipsCheap but ?not v secure / may chip paint

Option 2) http://store.securehosting.com/stores/sh205601/shophome.php?itemprcd=71500 + http://store.securehosting.com/stores/sh205601/shophome.php?itemprcd=716+ http://store.securehosting.com/stores/sh205601/shophome.php?itemprcd=t44 with ortleibs= œ86 but more stable

I'm not sure if my feet will clear the panniers with either of these set ups tho...

Option 3) http://www.carradice.co.uk/saddlebags/lowsaddle-longflap-saddlebag.shtml/ http://www.sentient-entity.org/light.html + http://www.carradice.co.uk/racks-and-attachments/bagman-qr-standard.shtml

Will have to move saddle back a few mm to get the clamp on my seat rails. Reckon i can get all my stuff for 2 weeks into 10Kgs/15L.

Any thoughts?

Ca roule ma poule?

sensei · June 2007

I used to tour light (hostelling and B&B) and if it didn't fit into a saddlebag and a barbag I didn't take it. That included the obligatory, in those days, YHA sheet sleeping bag; although I had the wife make me a lightweight one in rayon.

vernonlevy · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sensei

I used to tour light (hostelling and B&B) and if it didn't fit into a saddlebag and a barbag I didn't take it. That included the obligatory, in those days, YHA sheet sleeping bag; although I had the wife make me a lightweight one in rayon.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Having ridden up to Darlington to see a pal of mine's parents, they both pointed out to me that my Carradice saddlebag was identical to the ones that they used for a fortnight's touring in Cornwall in B&B and youth hostels back in the 1960's. Mine was half filled for the day's 128 mile round trip......

Joe used to use his bike for time trials, racing and touring.

Eurostar · June 2007

I have a plan yet to be put into action: to go on tour with camping gear without panniers or bar bag. I'm not going to make any claims because it may not work, but the theory is a Jandd frame bag, a Carradice SQR Tour with a compression stuff sac strapped to each side, tent poles fixed to the seat tube, tools in a canister which fits in a bottle cage under the down tube, aerobars with a Podium Quest aero bottle mounted on them and a home made miniature bar bag just behind the bottle to carry the stove in. I'll probably use the inside of the seat tube for storage too. The idea is to be very aerodynamic - so no panniers or conventional bar bag. The load on the SQR Tour bracket will be shared by a compression strap from the saddle to reduce the strain and stop it wobbling and rattling.

Don't tell me it all sounds a bit obsessive - I know!

Eurostar · June 2007

Here's an alternative solution. If you need panniers, instead of having them on the back with rubbishy P clips and not enough heel clearance get some carbon cyclocross forks and an Old Man Mountain Lowrider. It mounts to the brake bosses and the front axle. You would also have to change your front brake though.

Of course it would be easier and much cheaper just to buy some steel forks with eyelets!

How will you cope with moving your saddle back? Won't your riding position be all wrong? How about a longer saddle, i.e. The Fizik Arione?

sensei · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eurostar
[ a Carradice SQR Tour with a compression stuff sac strapped to each side,
.... I'll probably use the inside of the seat tube for storage too. The idea is to be very aerodynamic
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had to look up a Carradice SQR Tour and it's ..... a saddlebag!
In the days of the Itisa and other single pole tents you could buy nesting poles that fitted into the seat tube. Inside the innermost pole you could carry a blade to carve tent pegs with at each night's stop.
Why carry a stove? Make a hobo stove from a tin can and you only need a metal mug to boil up in.
Aerodynamic ... Surely, the only way to be aerodynamic on a bike is to fit a fairing?

It has all been done before in simpler times with less suitable materials to make the equipment from, but modern cycle load carrying luggage has evolved because it works well.
In the early '70's I met a very scarred guy from Liverpool who travelled, hostelling, with absolutely minimal kit: his wash bag included half a flannel, a very small tablet of soap and a toothbrush with most of the handle cut off. His 'touring' consisted of getting as many miles into a day as he could. He saw very little of what he passed and told me that he was once once racing down a Welsh hill, down on the drops, nose on the stem when he ran into the back of a car parked at the side of the road by a picnicking couple. He hadn't even seen it was there busy as he was tucking in for maximum speed.
He wrecked his bike, put himself in hospital for over a month and it took him three years to pay for the damage to the car.
I've often wondered if he was a tourist :0)

goldsmith_robert · June 2007

Eurostar - interesting idea but tried 'proper' touring in Italy a couple of years ago, was ok with tent + stove etc in the rolling hills of Umbria and Almafi coast but killed me on the bigger hills like passo del stelvio. Still had an amazing time, but my wife complained that i didnt do anything other than eat and fall asleep at the end of the day!

Off to Dolomites in a couple of weeks, booked cheep b&b's in towns for 3 days each to do day rides from there. I would be great to be able to climb out of the saddle, even on the journeys between b&b's when we will have to carry our stuff on the bike.

So light credit card touring is the plan.

Not sure if front pannier racks would affect handing too much, especially on fast descents.

I like the half-toothbrush idea! - hoping the b&bs will have towels & soap.

I've moved my saddle back 2mm and trying it out now to see if it affects riding position / comfort, so far so good.

I think im favouring the caradice longflap with bagman saddle support option - anybody know where the best place to order from is? My LBS doesnt stock them.

Eurostar · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by goldsmith_robert

tried 'proper' touring in Italy a couple of years ago, was ok with tent + stove etc in the rolling hills of Umbria and Almafi coast but killed me on the bigger hills
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Couldn't agree more, the highlight of a tour ought to be some proper mountain climbs. My obsession with minimising luggage has as much to do with weight as aerodynamics. Bike is 15 lbs, tent is 2 lbs, stove is titanium, sleeping bag and mat are ultralight. The idea is to have my cake and eat it by having the all up weight of a credit card tourist even though I have camping gear. It does mean spending money on super duper featherweight stuff, but I plan to get a lot of use out of it. And I love that feeling of reducing my possessions to the bare essentials. It's so relaxing.

When I see people loaded up with four full size panniers, a bar bag, a tail pack and as often as not a heap of stuff piled high on the rear rack it makes me want to weep. May as well go on holiday with a wheelbarrow.

Re getting your Longflap, see this special thread about it! http://cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.as ... _ID=133801

sensei · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
When I see people loaded up with four full size panniers, a bar bag, a tail pack and as often as not a heap of stuff piled high on the rear rack it makes me want to weep. May as well go on holiday with a wheelbarrow.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Here, I would suggest, is a cyclist who knows more about touring than most if not all on this forum:
http://www.bikebrothers.co.uk/ianhibell.htm

Take a look at the pictures. It may be that experience has taught him the value of the wheelbarrow approach. You might want to consider Josie Dew as well. Anne Mustoe really does do it on a credit card but expects to sleep in a hotel and has her food served to her.
Is a mix of one to the other practical?

amaferanga · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">When I see people loaded up with four full size panniers, a bar bag, a tail pack and as often as not a heap of stuff piled high on the rear rack it makes me want to weep. May as well go on holiday with a wheelbarrow.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are times and places where loading up with 4 panniers of gear is pretty much necessary such as long tours in Africa where to get to the remote parts you'd need to be able to carry water for a couple of days and most of your food for several. That plus more spares than you'd carry if you were touring in the UK or Europe means that 4 panniers is unavoidable.

But tourers with 4 panniers plus rack bag plus bar bag in the UK......I agree with Eurostar. It does make me wonder what exactly they are carrying.

More problems but still living.....

sensei · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by amaferanga

You carry fabric conditioner?

More problems but still living.....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't like the 4th bag to be empty.

alpinist · June 2007

The fun of cycling is riding a bike, rather than being a beast of burden. I liked the Ian Bell link, and noted he used a 40/46 chainset...I rode to Spain once with only what could be fitted into a carradice saddlebag. Simply wash your stuff out each night and patronise the locals for food and bike spares.

sensei · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by alpinist

The fun of cycling is riding a bike, rather than being a beast of burden. I liked the Ian Bell link, and noted he used a 40/46 chainset...I rode to Spain once with only what could be fitted into a carradice saddlebag. Simply wash your stuff out each night and patronise the locals for food and bike spares.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Alpinist, I cannot agree with your first sentence.
The cyclist is never a beast of burden (although I wonder about those who cycle with a backpack on), but the bicycle can be a very efficient beast of burden. It certainly isn't any less pleasure to ride if it is geared accordingly.

There are, perhaps, two styles of touring becoming confused in this debate: the camping tour and the travel light tour.
I believe, from my own experience, that saddlebag touring precludes comfortable camping. For my camping comfort I need spare clothes, a Thermarest, a quilt, and a tent that doesn't ever leak, blow down or let in insects. My kit is lightweight, including titanium tent pegs and utes, and is updated regularly. Having used gas, paraffin, petrol and meths over the last 49 years of my camping I am back to a hobo stove with hexy blocks if the wood is too wet. As either Nessmuk or Horace Kephart said: I don't go camping to rough it but to smooth it. My kit has little weight but has a bulk that needs at least bar bag, saddlebag or similar, and rear panniers to carry it. Sometimes it includes front panniers as well.
Camping gives an independence that allows you to tour without spending money as you go if that is what you want. I've been hard up enough to do that in the past and may do it again.
Nothing wrong with any method of touring to my mind but having your cake and eating it has never been an option; hence the old saying.

alpinist · June 2007

I had something like that to support my saddlebag. Dollies sounds great- biking all day should make a good apetite for all that Italian food!

sjcpcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by goldsmith_robert

Will have to move saddle back a few mm to get the clamp on my seat rails. Reckon i can get all my stuff for 2 weeks into 10Kgs/15L.

Any thoughts?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You don't seemed to have considered the Carradice SQR mount, which won't require you to change your saddle position. There are SQR bags, the Tour being the largest at 16 litres, but the SQR mounting system can be purchased as a seperate item and fits any Carradice saddlebag. The Super C and Camper Longflap are 24 litres and provide enough space for an extended tour.

I've just come back from 10 days in Scotland with just an SQR mounted Super C saddlebag and found it ideal. I also despaired at the large number of cycle tourists I saw with 4 panniers on their bikes.
I have done camping tours and fitted everything into 2 medium sized rear panniers, so I don't see what you need to carry in 4 panniers when touring in the UK.

plusgourmande · June 2007

Mr robert i sent you some pics of my rack on my track bike...

goldsmith_robert · June 2007

ooops, opened the old 'real touring' Vs 'light touring' can of worms again! Just thinking about those twisting hairpin descents and not being able to let go...

Anyhoo.. getting some p-clips to see if rack on the back is possible on my beloved road machine. I doubt that ill get the clearance for the pedals once its on however. The other factor is that I love my road machine and worry that it will be chipped by clips / clamps. I also imagine it feeling like a derby-winning throughbred hooked up to a cart. (unfortunatly my legs are more like an old nag rather than red rum).

I had a big debate when buying a new bike whether to get an audax/tourer but got seduced by the sleek road machines. Just wish I had more space/money for another bike....

sensei · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by goldsmith_robert

ooops, opened the old 'real touring' Vs 'light touring' can of worms again! Just thinking about those twisting hairpin descents and not being able to let go...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Both are 'real' touring; just different ways of doing it.

105champcp · June 2007

The answer is yes you can, and light touring is lovely as you don't feel excessively weighed down by luggage. I did two week tour with the carradice saddlebag and altura orkney bar bag. I was really glad of the bar bag as it provided easy access to lots of things on the move. Pack the essentials and pack light, because you'll always be able to buy things en route if you don't like them. I actually packed a few tops and trousers i didn't want anymore, wore them till grubby, cleaned my bike with them then binned them en route.

pneumatic · July 2007

My last three tours were:

3 weeks Scotland to Pamplona - 4 panniers, bar bag, tent on rack, seat post bag (tools)
10 days Pamplona to Santiago - 2 panners, bar bag, tent on rack, seat post bag (tools)
8 days Geneva to Grenoble over various grands cols - bar bag & rack pack only.

All were enjoyable and manageable, but I have to say that the diminishing loads reflected the fact that I realised that you don't need all that stuff. In fact, it is liberating not to have it. In Europe, you can buy whatever you need whenever you need it (including a cheap hotel room without booking ahead). Whilst it is fun to carry everything, be self-sufficient, and come back as strong as a shire horse, you don't have to do it that way.

johny c · July 2007

Robert,

My first tour was on a race bike, ten days to Stornoway and back from Ayr in '91. I had not even a barbag, nor toothbrush niether. I took only what I could stuff into the three pockets of my team 7-11 winter jacket. Just used hostels and ate what I got along the way. I did cheat a wee bit, relatives on Skye and Lewis provided home comforts, including a washing machine, for two of the days. Best time I ever had on a bike.

Another time I put a rack on a Giant race bike, because the frame invitingly had lugs, for a tour from Isle of Man through the Dales back to Scotland. The bike was almost uncontrollable, couldn't even get out of the saddle. I should have tested it before I left, as the camping gear was just too much, so got the train home from Settle.

ps. pneumatic, for you: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_L7Z_-ea_I

satanas · July 2007

People seem to have an unwonted aversion to front panniers... In reality, they make the bike MORE stable than it is without them, don't prevent jumping it over potholes and (according to US aerodynamicist Glen Brown) make the bike faster as they help smooth/shield airflow over the legs.

I've always noticed that I go slower with ANY rear panniers (even empty ones), and reach a lower maximum speed downhill. Not so with front bags.

Still, all those French and Japanese people must be wrong, eh? The only way for Real Men to tour has to be to use the biggest, heaviest rear panniers available, as far behind the rear axle as possible, and to supplement them with a ginormous barbag fitted to a wobbly mount and filled with bricks...

andymiller · July 2007

Robert

Tubus rack with the accessory kit that supports the rack on the rear axle plus M:Part do a seatclamp that dobles as the third mounting point for the rack (though unfortunately only available in 34.9mm so no help if you have a steel frame). Practical, secure and won't damage the paintwork.

andrew_s · July 2007

satanas wrote:

People seem to have an unwonted aversion to front panniers... In reality, they make the bike MORE stable than it is without them, don't prevent jumping it over potholes and (according to US aerodynamicist Glen Brown) make the bike faster as they help smooth/shield airflow over the legs.

I've always noticed that I go slower with ANY rear panniers (even empty ones), and reach a lower maximum speed downhill. Not so with front bags.

Still, all those French and Japanese people must be wrong, eh? The only way for Real Men to tour has to be to use the biggest, heaviest rear panniers available, as far behind the rear axle as possible, and to supplement them with a ginormous barbag fitted to a wobbly mount and filled with bricks...

Bang on!

I've managed to convert a couple of people in my club to low-riders and a small saddlebag (tools/waterproofs/day ride), but it sometimes seems like hard work.

Eurostar · July 2007

satanas wrote:

(according to US aerodynamicist Glen Brown) make the bike faster as they help smooth/shield airflow over the legs.
[\quote]

Did Glen give more info, e.g. where the panniers should be mounted? It seems his panniers have been recreated by a recumbent firm:
http://www.angletechcycles.com/accessories/techwind.htm

I'm determined to sort out the aerodynamics of a touring bike, even when carrying camping gear. I've been planning clip-on tribars with a Podium Quest bottle http://www.podiumquest.com/ and either a Carradice SQR Tour with a stuff sac strapped to each side or a Carradice Longflap Camper with a stuff sac on top. It seemed to me that making an egg shape with the luggage directly behind my rump would be the best thing. Any other suggestions?

I've dismissed a Zzipper fairing because of the sidewind issue. I suspect Zzippers would have caught on with Moultoneers if it weren't for this.

Eurostar · July 2007

Some more reading which happens to mention Glen Brown's panniers for those who are curious - see page 15, "Bicycle Fairings and Efficiency". http://www.ihpva.org/HParchive/PDF/28-v8n4-1990.pdf

satanas · July 2007

It's interesting to see a reproduction of the Tailwind panniers; I guess the price isn't so bad when you add 25 years of inflation... I have a set of original fronts (from 1983) and have always wished I'd bought rears too. Looks as if they've enlarged the fronts slightly (IIRC they were 1290 cubic inches) which is a good thing. It's also good to see they've kept the huge area of reflective material.

Pakit (at the time a subsidiary of Beta Bikes/Madison/Shimano UK) sold clones of Tailwinds around 1983 or so too, but these didn't catch on too well with (conservative) Brits. IMO, the conservative nature of cycle tourists is what killed the Tailwinds too. There's no doubt they work!

I mounted mine on Blackburn low rider racks - and in fact the round holes in the side plates are there for the TW locking pins. Very stable, fast, quiet, but not so waterproof. What we need is for Ortlieb to make some...

ZZipper fairings are not a problem in crosswinds. I've used the standard small (road bike) fairing, a smaller "bikini" fairing, and a much larger AM fairing (complete with lycra "skirt") and all were fine in crosswinds. They're a bit noisy over bumps and amplify noise from chipseal, especially if "disc" wheels (like the Glen Brown AM wheel fairings) are used, but no handling issues. BTW, the AM wheel discs make a very noticeable difference to speed; the front also has a significant affect in gusty crosswinds - unfortunately.

I'm not sure what - if anything - the author of the article quoted is saying about the TW panniers, but IME low rider front pannies help handling, and the TWs slow the bike much less than any normal shaped (or rear) panniers.

FWIW, a friend made (simplified in section) copies of the TWs; these were also noticeably faster than normal panniers with buckles, straps and pockets everywhere, despite their simle curve (rather than truncated airfoil) shape when viewed from above.

Eurostar · July 2007

Aha! Somebody with experience of fairings! That's a first for me. Do you recommend one for touring? I had more or less ruled it out on the grounds that the tiny speed increase at 15-20 mph wouldn't be worth the noise, the handling probs, the weight, the cost, the hassle of fitting it, the ugliness and the likelihood it would break the first time the bike topples over. But if there are no handling probs...

I remember the Pakit jobs - never realised they were copies. I worked for Madison for 6 glorious weeks in 1986.

You say the Tailwinds at the front don't slow you down much - what do you make of the report in Andrew_S' post that they speed you up??? A claim repeated on the angletech site: "These panniers, wind tunnel designed and proven, made your bike up to 7% faster through the wind than a bike without panniers."

One of these days I'd like to get out there with an SRM and do some real world testing of this sort of thing.

Brian NZ · August 2007

I went with the front pannier and Longflap saddle bag option. Total weight including panniers, saddle bag, tent, carried over food and every thing else to be fully self contained comes to12.5 kg.
I have checked out the weight distributation loaded and unloaded and they work out almost identical. I have done 81 kph solid as a rock. I have tried low speed, I can get dowm to 3.8kph before she starts to wobble. I can climb out of the seat with no trouble at all. Dodging potholes at speed, no problem. I am wraped. Hope this helps.
I would attach a photo of her in touring mode but can't fingure out how to do it.
Cheers Brian & Sue[/img]

Light touring on a road bike

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