Left, right, left, right angst.

rothbook · June 2007

My army officer nephew's been accepted into the Parachute Regiment and goes to Afghanistan next April. He came round last Friday, tried to shag my housemate and said that he was walking "like a gay" after hurting his leg in Close Quarter Training. My gay mate was round my house at the time and winced, rather. My take on it was that a certain amount of dehumanisation takes place during training and my nephew's certainly not homophobic. Training can be a brutalising experience and to fit in my nephew's probably vocalising stuff he doesn't necessarily mean. Wodju reckon?

Bcp · June 2007

I reckon that if he already knows he's going to Afghanistan next April the army is sorting out those posting plots a lot better than it used to. When I went to Bosnia I spent a good while on 24 hours (or sometimes even 12 hours) notice to move. Finally it was dropped back to 7 days NTM and the next day - I went!

Eat My Dust · June 2007

He's probably just used to such comments and un PC'ness with his regiment. Doesn't mean he's homophobic, spend enough time with people that make rude/racist/sexist/general un-PC comments and you'll probably find yourself talking in a similar manner.

SNAPS

The Bosscp · June 2007

Why is saying that accusinng someone of walking "like a gay" homophobic? Perhaps he was. He didn't say that walking "like a gay" was necessarily a bad thing.

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Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

My army officer nephew's been accepted into the Parachute Regiment and goes to Afghanistan next April. He came round last Friday, tried to shag my housemate and said that he was walking "like a gay" after hurting his leg in Close Quarter Training.
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So was it your housemate who was "walking like a gay?" Was this before or after your nephew had tried to shag him?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

My army officer nephew's been accepted into the Parachute Regiment and goes to Afghanistan next April. He came round last Friday, tried to shag my housemate and said that he was walking "like a gay" after hurting his leg in Close Quarter Training.
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So was it your housemate who was "walking like a gay?" Was this before or after your nephew had tried to shag him?
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Patrick - read the original post. Although not brilliantly clear, I think even you can work it out.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Why is saying that accusinng someone of walking "like a gay" homophobic? Perhaps he was. He didn't say that walking "like a gay" was necessarily a bad thing.

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They don't mince their words in the Parachute Regiment. [:0]

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Boss

Why is saying that accusinng someone of walking "like a gay" homophobic? Perhaps he was. He didn't say that walking "like a gay" was necessarily a bad thing.

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Very good point. Some might say that it was rothbook's comment that betrayed underlying homophobia.

spire · June 2007

before you get worked up, rothbook, I didn't really mean it! [;)]

Asterixcp · June 2007

Aren't the Paras trained to kill? Logically, that would need to be a brutalising experience.

Someone I knew went into the army - it was the Paras IIRC. He was a doctor and didn't want to be a GP because he'd rather treat fit people (even if they did have bullet holes). He was never the same again after the training.

Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..

Bcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Asterix

Aren't the Paras trained to kill? Logically, that would need to be a brutalising experience.

Someone I knew went into the army - it was the Paras IIRC. He was a doctor and didn't want to be a GP because he'd rather treat fit people (even if they did have bullet holes). He was never the same again after the training.

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Doctors don't do the same training as the infantrymen they treat. If he was with the Paras he may have had to do P Company but that is about sheer bloody-mindedness, fitness and stamina rather than military skills. AFAIR he would have done the 'vicars and medics' course at Sandhurst - so your account sounds a bit hyperbolic.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by B

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Asterix

Aren't the Paras trained to kill? Logically, that would need to be a brutalising experience.

Someone I knew went into the army - it was the Paras IIRC. He was a doctor and didn't want to be a GP because he'd rather treat fit people (even if they did have bullet holes). He was never the same again after the training.

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Doctors don't do the same training as the infantrymen they treat. If he was with the Paras he may have had to do P Company but that is about sheer bloody-mindedness, fitness and stamina rather than military skills. AFAIR he would have done the 'vicars and medics' course at Sandhurst - so your account sounds a bit hyperbolic.
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As I understand it (from my son who's in the army) P Company means that you're fit enough to keep up with them, rather than trained to fight like them.

It may be that he was fed up with being a pox doctor. [;)]

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

My take on it was that a certain amount of dehumanisation takes place during training
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I should ruddy well hope so - it's the Paras, not the bleeding girl guides.

Noodley · June 2007

Of course it was homophobic, what else could it be? Sounds as if your nephew may not actually think as you would believe him to. But blame his short period of training, much easier than accepting he is homophobic and has found an environment where he can vocalise his true beliefs. You have obviously been stifling him.

rothbook · June 2007

I think it's the other way round, Noodley. Which is a shame, but entirely predictable. He's young, dumb, and full of cum, and to an extent has been trained to do the job I'd run a mile from. He's on the wall, and not homophobic at all, just assimilating with people upon whom he may depend to save his life. He's a great kid and I'm terrified for him. Had grandads on opposite sides in WW2. WTF am I gonna do, tick him off for being un PC when he's shortly off doing whatever ghastly stuff the paras do?

Noodley · June 2007

I am rubbish at this trolling lark [:D]

Aye, you are probably right - just tell him to watch out and not believe it is "real". I know loads of guys in the Forces and ex-Forces (and Police where there is a similar need to have good relationships with colleagues who may save your life) who will "join in" but when it comes down to reality will stand up for what they believe - they will not tolerate racism, discrimination, etc but will happily be totally over the top when in a certain environment and only then when they feel safe. (Mind you there are some others I know who do believe it but they are usually not very successful, either in the Forces or in life)

Re the dehumanisation - I don't think, in the main, this bit is true. Most guys I know in the forces or ex-forces are more rounded than many other people I know. We have spent some long boozy nights discussing "things" and the one thing that comes through is how little de-humanisation takes place. However, I am sure some people do become de-humanised, but maybe that is because they do not have the framework from which to build to begin with.

rothbook · June 2007

Um, thanks Noodley. I'm petrified for him but this is what he wants. It's what he signed up for. I was out at a party on Friday and he was locked out of my house so he cut a switch from my amelanchiers in the front garden, reached in through the cat flap lying full stretch on the path, and flipped my lock from the inside with a three foot branch. I think he'll be ok. Hope so.

ankev1 · June 2007

Military training doesn't dehumanise, it rather teaches you how to cut through all the crap in a given situation (and in the drastic situations in which the Army is often involved there is a lot of crap), identify what needs to be done and do it as quickly and efficently as possible to get the desired result. Once everything's OK there's time for all the touchy feely stuff.

Current civvy management thinking seems to lead with the touchy feely stuff hence the lack of comprehension for military ways. I think that a lot of the lack of understanding for the forces on the part of civilians is that the biggest exposure to military life they get is the Hollywood version which of course deals with the US way of doing things. Yes the US forces are as unbelievably indoctrinated, gung-ho and thick as depicted. The British (and some other) forces are of far higher quality and completly different in nature to the Yanks. We could do with a couple of decent films about modern Brit campaigns, the problem is that if they were anything like accurate people would simply dismiss them as surreal comedies.

Tourist Tony · June 2007

Where's Gunner when you need him? Ruddy norah....

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

rothbook · June 2007

When he was late back to camp they had him polish the pendant light fittings and the tops of the door frames. When we chatted I told him this was to break him- make him follow orders unquestioningly. This doesn't mean he's abdicated personal responsibility but I think the barrack experience has...indoctrinated him a bit. Plus, put any bunch of men together in a confined, regimented, err regime they will behave in a more testosterone-driven manner I reckon.

ankev1 · June 2007

Rothbook,

I think you're subtly wrong there. The polishing is by no means an attempt to break; it's much more to do with mild conditioning along the lines of: "You were told x, you did y, well guess what, now you're doing z which is much more of a nause than if you had got your act together and done x in the first place." The long term object being that when somebody yells at you "Do a, b and c!" in circumstances where hesitation or questioning could have nasty consequences, you just do it. Like I said, it's about cutting through the crap.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

When he was late back to camp they had him polish the pendant light fittings and the tops of the door frames. When we chatted I told him this was to break him- make him follow orders unquestioningly. This doesn't mean he's abdicated personal responsibility but I think the barrack experience has...indoctrinated him a bit. Plus, put any bunch of men together in a confined, regimented, err regime they will behave in a more testosterone-driven manner I reckon.
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I'm not totally convinced that being made to do some cleaning will break a para officer. However, things have changed and taking an ipod of a sailor broke him.

rothbook · June 2007

Come on guys, menial tasks, ridiculous rules, absurd punishments are designed to condition recruits into following orders and weed out rebels, malcontents, authority haters and so on.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rothbook

Come on guys, menial tasks, ridiculous rules, absurd punishments are designed to condition recruits into following orders and weed out rebels, malcontents, authority haters and so on.

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Yes, but even if you are correct about this, then it's to your nephew's advantage. Military units need to function briskly and efficiently. There's not much point in querying an order to take cover as you'll be dead before you hear the explanation.

My eldest son is just back from heavy fighting with the Marines in Afghanistan and I assume that your nephew's para battle group (an augmented battalion with full specialist support) is on the six month rotation for the fighting at the sharp end. All I can say to reassure you is that the British troops are much better trained, led and equipped than the Taliban. Most of the British casualties have been isolated incidents and ambushes. In head to head combat (the compound clearances) the Taliban suffer overwhelming casualties.

Viewed objectively, the real concern should be for the teenage recruits to the Taliban (usually from Pakistan) who are indoctrinated and left to fight highly trained elite troops where they inevitably end up as deceased cannon fodder.

rothbook · June 2007

Sensible stuff Patrick, thanks.

Unknown · June 2007

Funny that.

Had anyone here made a similar politically incorrect comment, old rothbook would have jumped on them in an instant with a tirade of abusive epithets and condemnnation. Make it one of his own and suddenly it's all a case of scrabbling for justification and excuses.

It's either classic double standards, or Patrick's growing up lesson is working.....

rothbook · June 2007

Hang on, I was accused of homophobia earlier, now I'm supposed to be a bastion of gay rights? Can't win, you've got me coming and going.

Unknown · June 2007

Yes, but spire doesn't get your irony, does he?

rothbook · June 2007

No, for spire it's a golden guinea never to be spent. I honestly don't mind The Gays. I just wouldn't want my sister to marry one.

Simon L2 · June 2007

I'm not convinced that in head to head combat the Taliban suffer overwhelming losses. The same was said in Vietnam. And yet those Vietcong still kept coming.

Rothers old bean. My advice is this. Take the nephew for a night out in Vauxhall. With luck he'll pull, and do a runner before he's sent 4000 miles to do something that nobody seems to understand any more, and which may, for all his best efforts, be consigned to the same dustbin of history marked 'The Malaya Campaign'.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

I'm not convinced that in head to head combat the Taliban suffer overwhelming losses. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, I think rothbook can ask his nephew how many Taliban the Paras have killed. They keep tally for their own records - they're quite keen on their confirmed kills in the Paras - and also because the senior officers want to know what casualties the enemy are sustaining. The figures tend not to be released for obvious reasons, but some clue can be derived from the fact that last summer one unit got through 400,000 rounds of ammunition in combat.

The problem is that it is not the leaders of the Taliban who are being killed - it's the poor indoctrinated teenagers from Pakistan whom they send to be slaughtered by well armed professional soldiers. And there're an awful lot of teenagers out there.

Left, right, left, right angst.

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