Can a steel frame be justified ?

uptown · June 2007

I'm currently lusting after an Italian steel frame, something from the likes of De Rosa, Casati etc. I have a De ROsa carbon race bike now which is used for racing / general training, but fancy something for longer day rides / sportives etc.

It's almost impossibe to get a test ride, so concerned that I'm going to be disappointed, bit like meeting your heroes as the saying goes

How will the ride compare to my carbon bike ? I want more comfort, but it still has to be responsive etc (Not bothered about the extra couple of pound in weight).

I did consider titanium, but an ITalain design would cost too much, and the current bunch of cheaper ti manufactuers leave me a bit cold ( as good as they may be).

ANybody any experience of a top class steel frame Vs the equivalent in carbon ?

Thanks

portuguese mike · June 2007

Yes a steel frame can be justified.

as regular memebers of the forum are no doubt aware i'm awaiting a Waterford R33 which i test rode back to back against a Moots Vamoots
Ti bike. i've also ridden (albeit briefly a cervelo R3). the long and the short of it is that it was the best/nicest bike i've ever ridden. it has a magic carpet ride quality (for a non suspended bike) and has that trademark zingy responsivenes to it so it feels fast and livley. Its not as stiff as some of the top end carbon frames like an R3 but i found it plenty stiff enough ( i weigh 77 kg)and there was no chain rub whatsoever. it's also not that heavy (3.2 lbs -1430g)

if you live anywhere near southampton get yourself down to Rock and Road cycles who are the agents for waterford and they will let you take a bike or bikes out all day if you want to test them out (they are also dealers for Parlee as well as Moots) so you can compare against top end Ti and Carbon frames as i did. they also do a complete bike fit session so your bike will fit like a glove.

i agree with your concerns about forking out loads on a bike you haven't ridden after the misery of ordering by mail order a bike that didn't fit properly abd was unyieldingly uncomfy i won't ever do it again.

pm

Unknown · June 2007

Which De Rosa do you have?

Personally I don't think a steel frame offers much more in the way of comfort when compared to a carbon frame. Ride quality is always hard to describe but I think steel frames tend to be more stable than carbon frames but that's due to weight more than anything else.

Also, whereabouts are you and what size do you ride? There is a 58cm all steel Casati Laser on sale at Sigma Sport in Kingston. I'm sure they'd let you test ride it if you're the right size.

monty_dogcp · June 2007

Firstly, don't discount Italian titanium - look up Bertoletti, a lot cheaper than Litespeed for example. I have a couple of old Italian 'steelies' both Gios, as well as a titanium Colnago and a full carbon Battaglin - so have a good view of how they compare. Steel frames make great 'all day' bikes, particularly with classic Italian geometry with lazy head angles which gives predictable and stable handling. Comfort comes a lot down to fork and tyre choice too. My titanium bike has the most 'zing' and the best all-round handling, particularly when riding fast. The carbon is nice too, but can feel a little 'dead' at times and doesn't 'jump' as well as the ti frame, even though it's plenty stiff enough. The steel bikes are somewhere inbetween and provided you're not a weight-weenie, are great for training rides. Bertoletti will also make you a beautiful frame in 953 which may be a good compromise - only problem is that UK agent for Bertoletti was skinny wheels in Rugby, but not sure if they're still trading?

paul_smith_srcc · June 2007

Nothing wrong with a steel frame if well built and designed, a Derosa frame will indeed still give a fast comfortable ride; just like they did when steel was the norm'.

Titanium will indeed be the nearest comparison of the popular modern materials although branding prestige aside, Titanium will have the edge in most areas when you compare something like Derosa steel frame above with a Titanium quality built frame from one of similar price from China or Tawain, a few of which are now comparible in workmanship, design and overall quality to the European and American rivals.

Carbon will normally be lighter and more rigid yet also comfortable, although can be more delicate. Aluminium Alloy will also be rigid but less comfortable and less durable, although you have not mentioned Aluminium Alloy in your post so will not go off topic with more comparisons.

In conclusion to justify the purchase of the steel frame, some of which are not cheap, like the versions from Derosa, then sure if that is what you want then why not, it is simply that you are buying something retro with a brand that you want. You have stated that the "cheaper ti manufacturers leave me a bit cold" and you also correctly state that they are very good, some indeed as I state above definetly are; yet if you don't want one the fact that steel may not be quite as good doesn't mean that it will not still give good service, it is not a case of retro equals poor, more a case of retro equals still good, although some of the modern alternatives are even better, plus available at a similar, if not even cheaper price making them in many ways the more logical option.

It sounds like you don't actually want it as a 'logical' purchase though, you seem to want it as much for 'polishing' purposes as apposed to pure function ; nothing wrong in that though [:D].

You may find these links informative

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-materials.html

http://www.vannicholas.com/ResLib/WbmTitanium.aspx

http://www.caree.org/bike101framematerials.htm

Paul_Smith
www.bikeplus.co.uk

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by uptown

I'm currently lusting after an Italian steel frame, something from the likes of De Rosa, Casati etc. I have a De ROsa carbon race bike now which is used for racing / general training, but fancy something for longer day rides / sportives etc.

It's almost impossibe to get a test ride, so concerned that I'm going to be disappointed, bit like meeting your heroes as the saying goes

How will the ride compare to my carbon bike ? I want more comfort, but it still has to be responsive etc (Not bothered about the extra couple of pound in weight).

I did consider titanium, but an ITalain design would cost too much, and the current bunch of cheaper ti manufactuers leave me a bit cold ( as good as they may be).

ANybody any experience of a top class steel frame Vs the equivalent in carbon ?

Thanks
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Surrey Road CC, articles of my tours; Lejog, North Sea to the Alps, English Channel to the Med', 'End to End' Ireland,London to Paris,Corsica

derosa · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by andyp

Which De Rosa do you have?

Personally I don't think a steel frame offers much more in the way of comfort when compared to a carbon frame. Ride quality is always hard to describe but I think steel frames tend to be more stable than carbon frames but that's due to weight more than anything else.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I disagree. With frame material, it's horses for courses. For a steady all day ride I use a custom steel frame, while for a couple of hours blast at top speed carbon can't be beat.

Big H

Those who risk nothing, do nothing, acheive nothing, become nothing.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by derosa

I disagree. With frame material, it's horses for courses. For a steady all day ride I use a custom steel frame, while for a couple of hours blast at top speed carbon can't be beat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Fair enough. I can only relate my experience.

I have, or have had, steel, titanium, aluminium and carbon frames. For all day comfort I'd go for titanium first, then carbon then steel.

Blonde · June 2007

I think you get what you pay for with any material. You can get good and bad frames made in all materials. The better made, lighter weight and more expensive steel fames will be just as 'good' as the better made and lighter weight frames made of other materials. It really depends on your individual preference.

I have good quality hand-built steel Bob Jackson and have ridden events of up to 570km (a recent 600 I DNF) on it, feeling very comfortable, even though it is a 'race' bike, not an 'audax' bike, whereas my cheap and cheerful Ribbble 'audax' bike is not only heavier, despite being made of aluminium with carbon fibre fork, but is also not comfortable for anything over 200km.

maddog_2cp · June 2007

I'd go ti over steel any day. Only budget issues would change this.

Drop bars are a historical accident...... discuss

Ste_S · June 2007

Why not go to someone like Mercian or Robin Mather ?

graemetherunner · June 2007

A lot of what you seem to be comparing is more to do with design than material.

I have a Giant TCR (alloy) and it has oversize tubes on a very small compact frame.
I also have a custom steel frame, built to the exact same measurements of my giant using colombus spirit (pretty large gauge tubes for steel)

What do you think the difference is in "ride" or "feel"?

If I was to do the same in carbon then Ti... I really doubt they would be much different.

however if I vary the tube diameter or made the frame longer, maybe slight differences.

most noticable between different bike is the wheel & tyre setup...
an exageration... but if I were to run 23mm 50 psi on a set of tradional shallow mavic reflex sprint rim with 28 spoke???

Down the Road · June 2007

You'll hate it. Neo primato is only a 1" steerer. Look at what can be altered on you Carbon. Less Stiff wheels and lower tyre pressure would be a good start.

Remember they are all designed for all day riding.

peejay78 · June 2007

my condor is steel . it's a thing of wonder.

winter: http://tinyurl.com/2xkbbs
summer: http://tinyurl.com/2hsagv

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Down the Road

You'll hate it. Neo primato is only a 1" steerer. Look at what can be altered on you Carbon. Less Stiff wheels and lower tyre pressure would be a good start.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">What's your point exactly? And how does a 1" steerer effect comfort?

gundersen · June 2007

I have a Tommasini steel frame and a Litespeed titanium frame,
I prefer the Tommasini any day.
Feels better.

Unknown · June 2007

"Steel frames make great 'all day' bikes, particularly with classic Italian geometry with lazy head angles which gives predictable and stable handling. Comfort comes a lot down to fork and tyre choice too."

For "steel" read...Ti, carbon, alu as you wish, as the key is surely as much if not more in the geometry, forks and tyres? Plus in the "shape" and thickness of the tubes - whatever the base material. The seat post material. length exposed etc probably makes more difference than the frame MATERIAL per se.

I've owned 5 or 6 Ti framed, lots of steel, lots of alu but only one carbon. The carbon probably the most "comfy" - whatever that means - but then it was the most expensive. That might explain it!

d.j.
"The Angels have my 'phone box."
"Better than The Angels have got your Harley."

portuguese mike · June 2007

unless you've already made your mind up about a steel frame then i think it's worth reiterating that it's a;ways best to try before you buy. i didn't set out to get a steel framed bike i just wanted a fast bike that was also comfortable over long distances was well made and most crucially, fitted properly. that led me down the custom build route and the bike i chose was simply the best i tried.

there is a bewildering choice out there and obviously you can't try everything so you do have to narrow down your options and your best bet is to find a decent bike shop with a good range of the sort of things you're intersted in.

Also if its an italian steed that really floats your boat then have you thought about Pegoretti?

pm

uptown · June 2007

Thanks for the advice everyone, I'm going to visit a shop in sheffield which has Somec, Gios, Casati and a couple of other, so should help.

The Raucous AUK · June 2007

Can a steel frame be justified?

Yes, but only if the colour is right.

Can a steel frame be justified ?

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