The whole speeding thing

Roastie · June 2007

So, I know there are many regulars here who have a big problem with cars speeding. It is a great evil, extremely dangerous. All car driving speeders should have their balls cut off, etc. ... So what about bicycles?

On my extended commute, I regularly do 45 in a 30 zone. The road is clear, well sighted without little roads and driveways that could be dangerous. The pedestrians are well separated from the road.

Do the vehement anti-RLJers think this particular action of mine is also reprehensible - I mean I am breaking the law [:0].

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Yes you should be jailed.

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Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Yes you should be jailed.

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
[V]

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Not really.I was joshing.[;)]

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
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palinurus · June 2007

45! not a speed I see often on my commute. You aren't really breaking the law, since the limit's for motor vehicles. It might be a bit silly to do 45 under certain circumstances, but probably not on a stretch of road like the one you describe.

Do you still get overtaken?

DavidTQ · June 2007

Breaking the law by doing 45 in a 30 zone on a bike?

I thought the RTA speed limits didnt include our bicycles because they arent mechanically propelled vehicles?

Ive not done 45 on a bike yet so couldnt answer any safety issues on that one, No problems with the safety of 30 in a 30 zone on a bike.

Hackbike 6 · June 2007

Wouldn't you be done for cycling without due care?

Christ.The fastest I have ever been on a bike was 50mph the other side of Ditchling on the way to Brighton only as I was too scared to go any faster.I will beat a lot of you next month as Im going on the Japanese
Bullet Train next month hopefully.[}:)]

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
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maybrick · June 2007

45?
why so slow?

_______________

i'm not bound by your earthling rules.

dondare · June 2007

Cylists can not be prosecuted for speeding. However, they can be charged with the rather quaint offence of "cycling furiously".
And no, this does not describe me after seeing someone ignore a red light.

A pox on both your houses.

domtyler · June 2007

You cannot be charged for speeding on a bicycle as the laws are different for cyclists. However, if the limit is 30mph then that probably means that there are pedestrians walking around so to be doing 45mph on a push bike is just as anti social as doing it in a car or lorry. You should be aware that if you did hit a small child at that speed then you will most likely cause their death.

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maybrick · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">domtyler Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:14:39

You cannot be charged for speeding on a bicycle as the laws are different for cyclists. However, if the limit is 30mph then that probably means that there are pedestrians walking around so to be doing 45mph on a push bike is just as anti social as doing it in a car or lorry. You should be aware that if you did hit a small child at that speed then you will most likely cause their death. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

this smacks of lazy posting, please back this up.

_______________

i'm not bound by your earthling rules.

dondare · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by maybrick

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">domtyler Posted - 11/06/2007 : 21:14:39

You cannot be charged for speeding on a bicycle as the laws are different for cyclists. However, if the limit is 30mph then that probably means that there are pedestrians walking around so to be doing 45mph on a push bike is just as anti social as doing it in a car or lorry. You should be aware that if you did hit a small child at that speed then you will most likely cause their death. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

this smacks of lazy posting, please back this up.

_______________

i'm not bound by your earthling rules.
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You don't come from planet Safespeed, do you?

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The Endorser · June 2007

Work it out - A typical rider + machine might weigh 80 kilos (I weigh 99 + bike - too many pies!), travelling at 50 mph...hell, I can't do the math but it's in the order of a metric tonne or two - that's a helluva lot of kintetic energy fo a childs body to absorb in the instant of an impact. Add to this your reduced opportunity to react to hazards, not to mention being right at the limit of a cycles hndling and braking, and it really does seem like a daft thing to do.

The definition of furious cycling doesn't cover simply going fast. Bicycles are not exempt from speed limits unter the RTA, but have the case proven mitigation of no speed measuring device (unless, like me, you actually do use GPS or a computer). Ignorance of the law is no defence, but ignorance of the fact is, so provided you could demonstrate that you had know reasonable method of measuring your velocity you hav defence too, and the Criminal Protection Service would be all but guaranteed not to proceed, as there is an insignificant chance of a succesful posecution.

Most i've ever managed is 43 (i'm an MTB man) and hatwas down hill.

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

Hairy Jock · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie
On my extended commute, I regularly do 45 in a 30 zone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you sure your cycle computer isn't set to Km?

maybrick · June 2007

what i meant was , have you any recorded examples?
i'm not disagree-ing (heaven forefend!) but if a car at forty is likely to be fatal, then it simply must be the case that for a bike you can scale that down for the decrease in size, weight, momentum, surface area......and, let's get real, who maintains that kind of sped in a built up area very often.

in that context:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> You should be aware that if you did hit a small child at that speed then you will most likely cause their death<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

seems a little emotive at best.

_______________

i'm not bound by your earthling rules.

drossall · June 2007

maybrick - There's a big clue in the table in the HC, which doesn't have a row for cyclists - although it does mistakenly say that the limits apply to all traffic, when it means all motor traffic. Just shows that not even the HC is always reliable.

However, the introduction to that table also references the RTRA sections 81, 86 and 89.

The RTRA quite clearly says "motor vehicles". You can't apply a law that says "motor vehicles" to vehicles without motors.

Of course, other posters are quite correct. If the risks of a stretch of road are such that cars should not exceed 30mph, it's hard to see how cyclists could do 45mph without being open to a charge of reckless or furious cycling.

drossall · June 2007

By the way, you can probably also "scale that down" in terms of brake effectiveness [:0]

The point is surely that, at 45mph, you have only 2/3 of the time you would have had at 30mph to react. What's more, the mathematics of braking mean that, on any reasonable measure, you'll probably hit a pedestrian or other "hazard" several times harder than you would otherwise have done.

This is because useful measures go as the square of the speed, so 45mph means two-and-a-quarter times the "impact" of 30mph. Also, braking distances are longer, so you'll still be shifting fast when at 30mph you'd have stopped - so a hard impact replaces no impact at all. And pedestrians get killed occasionally by bikes doing a lot less than 30mph. So do cyclists.

The Bosscp · June 2007

Speed limits don't apply to cyclists! We aren't obliged to have a speedo so there's no way you can know what speed you were going anyway.
I would be quite proud if I managed to set a speed camera off on my bike, it's not something that you should be pillow-biting about.

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CyclingIsPermittedAlongThisFootpath GenericPath

drossall · June 2007

Cyclists have every interest in the law being obeyed. I can't see the logic of expecting motorists to obey limits and then denying any obligation to consider our own speed.

Besides, it helps me not to look so slow [:D]

rgisme · June 2007

The idea that cyclists can't be prosecuted for speeding because they don't have a speedo is just complete and utter rubbish. It is not a 'mitigation'. There can be no case to answer in the first place. They can't be prosecuted for it because the Act which creates the requirement to obey a limit is specific in its application to motor vehicles.

There are other charges which could be used instead. As others have pointed out 'furious riding' is still on the statute books. The last case that drew any public attention was in 1997, for riding below the limit at an alleged 25mph. If anyone is ever again prosecuted for this, please do us all the favour of letting us know so we can follow the prosecution with glee and interest for the outcome. But do try and turn up in your own defence, unlike the person who was prosecuted in 1997.

Apart from that, there are the offences of careless and dangerous cycling too. But I venture to suggest, and would argue in defence were they to be laid simply for exceeding the motor vehicle limit with no aggravating factors, that those offences were not committed, if they were laid in circumstances where all a driver would be charged with is a simple 'speeding' offence. Unless a driver would have got charged with 'dangerous driving' in similar circumstances, there is arguably no case to charge a cyclist with it. And we all know how rarely a dangerous driving case sticks.

Cunobelin · June 2007

I passed my Cycling Proficiency -

Therefore I am an incredibly good and safe cyclist, therefore I am the best judge of speed and therefore I can go as as fast as I like. Due to my cycling proficiency certificate I am immune from the law - it nolonger applies to me.

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The Endorser · June 2007

We've got one of those SID things in the village and I usually trundly by at about 22 mph, which isn't bad going on an MTB. Might try for a bit more on the way back from dropping the stepdaughter off at school today.

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BentMikey · June 2007

Rgisme has it right, the endorser is quite wrong in his earlier post, IMO.

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

So, I know there are many regulars here who have a big problem with cars speeding. It is a great evil, extremely dangerous. All car driving speeders should have their balls cut off, etc. ... So what about bicycles?

On my extended commute, I regularly do 45 in a 30 zone. The road is clear, well sighted without little roads and driveways that could be dangerous. The pedestrians are well separated from the road.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How long is this section? If its clear, well sighted, no driveways and little roads coming on to it, why is the limit 30? And, just as important, whats the gradient like?

It all depends on conditions really, but I can't think of any 30mph sections that I know where it would be appropriate to cycle at 45mph. I can think of many where drifting above 30mph would be pretty harmless, but 45 is a heck of a lot of impact.

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The Endorser · June 2007

Only managed 20 mph past it today - my excuse is jeans, flatties and a heavy coat (it's only 3/4 a mile to the school so not worth kitting up). Didn't stop the car overtaking me ratling past at 38.

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hackbike 6

Not really.I was joshing.[;)]

Hackbike 8 Commuting Debut 09/09/2006Dawes Audax 2006 New 20/09/2006 

 Cycle Commuting since 1981 

Cycling Proficiency Test 24 May 1977 (30 years ago)

 Ride to work part 1 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/ypjapc
Ride to work part 2 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jfagu
Ride to work part 3 of 8 http://tinyurl.com/2jcldv 

How not to lock a bike. http://i14.tinypic.com/52355zr.jpg
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
So was I [:)]!

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidTQ

Breaking the law by doing 45 in a 30 zone on a bike?

I thought the RTA speed limits didnt include our bicycles because they arent mechanically propelled vehicles?

Ive not done 45 on a bike yet so couldnt answer any safety issues on that one, No problems with the safety of 30 in a 30 zone on a bike.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I must check on that, a cyclist friend at work reckons I'd get a fine for it if I were caught.

As for safety - eish! Let me play devil's: A bike's brakes are nowhere near as good as a car's - hitting a ped at that speed could be very nasty indeed.

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by maybrick

45?
why so slow?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Flat bar hybrid is my excuse, and I'm sticking with it.

Roastie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hairy Jock

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie
On my extended commute, I regularly do 45 in a 30 zone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Are you sure your cycle computer isn't set to Km?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm positive that it is set to km/h [;)] - I'm certain sure that I didn't come anywhere near 73km/h.

Roastie · June 2007

Eish! Sorry for flooding the thread - so much to reply to ...

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

So, I know there are many regulars here who have a big problem with cars speeding. It is a great evil, extremely dangerous. All car driving speeders should have their balls cut off, etc. ... So what about bicycles?

On my extended commute, I regularly do 45 in a 30 zone. The road is clear, well sighted without little roads and driveways that could be dangerous. The pedestrians are well separated from the road.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

How long is this section? If its clear, well sighted, no driveways and little roads coming on to it, why is the limit 30? And, just as important, whats the gradient like?

It all depends on conditions really, but I can't think of any 30mph sections that I know where it would be appropriate to cycle at 45mph. I can think of many where drifting above 30mph would be pretty harmless, but 45 is a heck of a lot of impact.

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<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It is the first bit of a road running into a villge. It is a remarkably clear section of road, I'd estimate that it is about 1/4 mile at least from the 30 sign to the stop before a narrow single width bridge and the properly built up area (houses), has a wall down the right side and a row of buildings on the left - well separated from the road. One lane going each way. Moderate slope. The section before is very steep, though twisty and if you get a good run out of the corners, you'll be entering the 30 zone at 45.

rgisme · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Roastie

As for safety - eish! Let me play devil's: A bike's brakes are nowhere near as good as a car's - hitting a ped at that speed could be very nasty indeed.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Compare a bicycle to a small motorbike, not a car. The motorcycle will probably have more powerful brakes and a greater tyre contact patch to brake on, but it is also a heavier vehicle in the first place. It would probably be less prone to flipping the rider in the air under heavy braking because of the greater weight, although with lack of sufficient application of skill or time to stop under braking no matter what you do, a cycle rider is probably more likely to flip and fall and motorcyclist probably to skid and fall. Nevertheless I'm not at all sure that, taken all round, given the differences in weight, that a bicycle's braking distance for a given speed will be much greater than that of a small motorcycle or scooter. The impact effect with a pedestrian, at any given speed, is likely to be more severe with a motorcycle because of its greater weight and bulk. Neither have the pedestrian-friendly euro-jelly mould rounded shapes of most modern cars. Despite this, motorcyclists are, on the whole, treated equally with cars when it comes to speeding offences.

There is no reason to think cyclist at speed is of more danger to pedestrians than a motorcyclist. That is not to say that a cyclist could not inflict serious injury in collision with a pedestrian. Of course they can, and have, up to and including severe disablement and death. But it is very rare, and whatever you may think about it, only riders/drivers of motorvehicles can be prosecuted for exceeding the limit (outside of areas where special bylaws have been laid to include cyclists). Other charges, with the possible exception of 'furious riding', which is never used, would not be relevant for a simple case of exceeding a limit - unless perhaps it was by a very large amount, and/or there were other aggravating features.

The whole speeding thing

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