Scottish friends: Explain how this is fair...

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

I will be fascinated to see how the Scottish contingent explain this one away:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 909775.ece

Extract:

BRITISH taxpayers are to meet the œ2 billion cost of reintroducing free university education in Scotland - but students from England and Wales will still have to pay the full fees.
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It's fair because that's how democracy works. We voted for our devolved parliament. It is given a budget to work with from Westminster. We then elect MSPs to control how to spend that budget and they have decided to spend œ2bn of that on funding free higher education.

Where's the unfairness?

You may claim unfiarness in the constitutional settlement where Scots MPs vote on English education or on the allocation of the block grant but they're separate issue. How we decide to use our budget is up to us and our elected representatives surely?
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The unfairness is in the bigger per capita budget.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

1. We voted for our devolved parliament.

2. We then elect MSPs

3. Where's the unfairness?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. Oh no, we didn't.

2. Oh no, WE don't.

3. I would have thought it blindingly obvious.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

Oh dear, oh dear!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6739007.stm

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But on the other hand:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6740159.stm

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

Unknown · June 2007

Spire

Once funds have been alocated to Scotland, then in Scotland we can more or less spend it as we please. That is why it is fair.

If you want the same maybe you could elect more Scots to Westminster.[:)]

Patrick makes the only possible argument against it (is the funding too high) but that is another debate.

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

Oh dear, oh dear!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6739007.stm

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But on the other hand:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/6740159.stm

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ahem. [:I]

"Various factors may help to explain this", she said.

"There are fewer large families in Scotland and there were relatively more prosperous families in our sample.

"There is also less ethnic diversity, but a full investigation remains to be completed."

I'm surprised that research of this nature is being published as it is bound to encourages Tories and racists. [:(]

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

Spire

1. Once funds have been alocated to Scotland, then in Scotland we can more or less spend it as we please. That is why it is fair.

2. If you want the same maybe you could elect more Scots to Westminster.[:)]

3. Partick
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. Why one rule for Scots studying in Scotland and another for English studying in Scotland? Isn't that racist?

2. Blimey, they're running the show already!

3. Thistle?

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
The unfairness is in the bigger per capita budget.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There's certainly a lively debate to be had on that subject but Spire wants to debate that then he could say so instead of taking such an interest in how the Scottish Executive spends the money it is allotted. That is up to the ones who elect them.

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

1. We voted for our devolved parliament.

2. We then elect MSPs

3. Where's the unfairness?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. Oh no, we didn't.

2. Oh no, WE don't.

3. I would have thought it blindingly obvious.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm tempted to reply "Oh yes we did" but I'll resist.

I assume you mean that English and Welsh voters did not get a vote on Scottish devolution or for the Scottish parliament. I'd like to hear why you think you should or why the Scots shouldn't. Are you saying the Scots only have the right to self determination if the English say they can?

Obviously it's not blindingly obvious to me. Can you explain why the Scottish Executive prioritising higher education is unfair and who it it unfair on?

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by killiekosmos

Spire

1. Once funds have been alocated to Scotland, then in Scotland we can more or less spend it as we please. That is why it is fair.

2. If you want the same maybe you could elect more Scots to Westminster.[:)]

3. Partick
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. Why one rule for Scots studying in Scotland and another for English studying in Scotland? Isn't that racist?

2. Blimey, they're running the show already!

3. Thistle?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

1. I think it's got something to do with education being a devolved matter so the English education system has to pay for educating English students. The EU thing apparently only applies across borders. To call it racism though is ridiculous. It's clearly about money. How many English students would cross the border if they could get higher education for free? It would become unworkable.

2. About time.

3. Thank you Spire. I'm sure that's the 1st time Partick Thistle has been mentioned on this forum. That's made my day.

spire · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

I'm tempted to reply "Oh yes we did" but I'll resist.

I assume you mean that English and Welsh voters did not get a vote on Scottish devolution or for the Scottish parliament. I'd like to hear why you think you should or why the Scots shouldn't. Are you saying the Scots only have the right to self determination if the English say they can?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Now this be the nub of the matter!

I don't blame the Scots for taking care of themselves!

But it's Scottish Labour MPs that force different rules on England!

And why are the English in Scotland treated differently to the Scottish in Scotland? All very well to say it's about money, but that could be applied to many other issues e.g. benefits for immigrants. PC Brigade would go mad then!

(Don't know why, but when I was a child I always listened out for the Partick Thistle result - thought it was such a great name.[:D])

Wogan · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire
Don't know why, but when I was a child I always listened out for the Partick Thistle result - thought it was such a great name.[:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A great name for a great team. Altogether now:

One Partick Thistle
There's only one Partick Thistle
One Partick Thiiiiiiistle
There's only one Partick Thistle.

[:p]

And on topic...

If you're jealous over those manky Scots getting something for nothing, vote accordingly at the next General Election. Stop moaning and do something about it.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Wogan

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire
Don't know why, but when I was a child I always listened out for the Partick Thistle result - thought it was such a great name.[:D]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
A great name for a great team. Altogether now:

One Partick Thistle
There's only one Partick Thistle
One Partick Thiiiiiiistle
There's only one Partick Thistle.

[:p]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

More commonly known as Partick Thistle nil[:)]

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

But it's Scottish Labour MPs that force different rules on England!

And why are the English in Scotland treated differently to the Scottish in Scotland? All very well to say it's about money, but that could be applied to many other issues e.g. benefits for immigrants. PC Brigade would go mad then!

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

We've been here before. The people who make laws at Westminster are not the same as those at Holyrood. They have different administrations, representatives, manifestos, alliances etc. Also Scottish MPs make a small proportion of members at Westminster, so it's not the case that their votes count more than others.

I understand that other non-Scots (Australians, Americans ......) also have to pay fees to attend Scottish Unis.

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

QuickDraw · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Now this be the nub of the matter!

I don't blame the Scots for taking care of themselves!

But it's Scottish Labour MPs that force different rules on England!

And why are the English in Scotland treated differently to the Scottish in Scotland? All very well to say it's about money, but that could be applied to many other issues e.g. benefits for immigrants. PC Brigade would go mad then!

(Don't know why, but when I was a child I always listened out for the Partick Thistle result - thought it was such a great name.[:D])
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What KK said.

Plus it IS about money (isn't it always?) The benefit system is not devolved, education is. As I understand it the rules which force us to fund students from within the EU but outside the UK almost scuppered the whole scheme. We didn't really want to offer free higher education to the whole of Europe but that's the price we have to pay to make education free for all Scots.

Just so you know free education was not a labour policy, well it was but not a New Labour policy, the Graduate Endowment was a concession they made to the LibDems to make the coalition work and now that is being extended by the SNP and others. Where is the hypocrisy? Who are the hypocrites?

PS you said in your original post you'd be "fascinated to see the Scottish contingent explain this away". Are you really fascinated? Have we not just repeated the same old explanations about the new constitutional settlement? There are clearly issues to be resolved but I'm not convinced hypocrisy is one of them and certainly a conspiracy by Scots at Westminster to run Scotland one way and England another are well wide of the mark.

mjones · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by QuickDraw

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
The unfairness is in the bigger per capita budget.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There's certainly a lively debate to be had on that subject but Spire wants to debate that then he could say so instead of taking such an interest in how the Scottish Executive spends the money it is allotted. That is up to the ones who elect them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I agree: there are two quite different arguments going on here. The Scottish Executive has decided that it wants to spend a chunk of the money given to it through its devolved powers on subsidising people to get degrees. That is entirely a matter for Scotland, though the Scottish people really ought to question whether that is the best way to spend œ2 billion in comparison with all the other things it might have been used for instead.

The question for the UK government is whether Scotland really deserves the greater per capita allocation of the public purse. Spending that extra money on luxuries like free student fees is unfortunately a rather good way to prompt people to question whether it is really deserved.

One thing this does highlight is the problem of having devolved government that spends but doesn't raise its own revenue. The UK government has to balance its spending promises against the economic and political impact of the taxes needed to fund that spending. Scotland and Wales don't have to do that, so the political interests of their politicians lie in extracting the best possible funding settlement from the UK government and spending it on populist things.

They don't even have the same pressure to get value for money out of that expenditure, because even if they reduce their demand on the taxpayer they won't necessary see the benefits accrue to their own electorate. This isn't a recipe for responsible government. If Scotland and Wales had to take responsibility for raising most of the money they spend then their priorities would be rather different.

Pizzaman · June 2007

The reason that Scotland gets a greater proportion of the National purse per capita is because New Labour doesn't want the Scots voting SNP and eradicating the heartland that helps to deliver them elections.

If I was Gordon Brown I would be tempted to cut off the supply of cash, because as displayed by the recent Holyrood elections, the Scots have clearly forgotten who the Daddy is.

Saddle bum · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mjones

The question for the UK government is whether Scotland really deserves the greater per capita allocation of the public purse. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Seeing as the Govt is dominated by Scots, the answer speaks for itself.

Molon Labe.

rgisme · June 2007

The Scots have the system right. It is the English and Welsh system that is wrong. The answer to this 'unfairness' is simple. Do away with tuition fees in England and Wales too.

Simon L2 · June 2007

didn't we steal their oil?

redcogs · June 2007

Side aching laughter from this quarter at the very idea of an arch tory like spiro having any concern about fairness. The entire raison de'tre of the tory is organising unfairness to benefit the interests of the rich. Shameless puke making individualism.

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · June 2007

A bit harsh redcogs.

Do you genuinely believe that fairness is the exclusive preserve of old Commies?

peterbr · June 2007

I certainly don't object or expect to have a say in how Scotland spends money given to devolved responsibilities. I do however expect all Scots MPs to butt-out of devolved affairs in the Westminister parliament. Full marks for Salmond's SNP for this. Of course you couldn't expect anything close to that principled position for the miserable Scots Labour lobby fodder.

What I really don't get is the point that Scotland must pay for students from all European states, yet as part of a European state, students from England don't qualify. Once again, English people subsidise and pay for the EU then cannot hope to benefit from a club we are supposed to by members of. How is this possibly allowed? As this is apparently an internal, domestic matter, the question is. Can the Scottish parliament make this decision unilaterally or did the Westminster Parliament allow this? If so they kept bloody quiet about it (hardly surprising). Will anyone have the balls to take it to the European court? Is it really acceptable in the warped mind of people who allowed this to refuse to pay for ONLY English people? How about refusing only Roma Gypsys? Or only Jews perhaps? The fact we foot part of the bill only adds insult to injury.

I can't imagine anyone could sit down and come up with two more bent systems than the EU and Nu Lab's laughably lopsided devolution. The only conpensation I get as an Englishman is watching Labour's fiefdoms in Scotland and Wales collapse before their eyes. I can't think of anyone since Guy Fawkes who has intended more damage on the nation than this government. Thankfully, he was even less competent than this lot are.

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Elephants and Ivory go together in perfect harmony.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

didn't we steal their oil?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"We?"
"Steal?"
"Their?"

I thought we were part of one United Kingdom.

monty_dogcp · June 2007

As someone who benefitted from a Scottish education and to see the abysmal mess they've made of it in this country, I'm glad to see that it's a devolved subject. At least they see the long term benefit of investment in free education rather than trying to measure it to death. If I had children, I'd certainly consider moving back to Scotland for the sake of a decent education.

On the more important sub-topic - it's nae Partick Thistle, therra Jags!

papercorn2000 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

didn't we steal their oil?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"We?"
"Steal?"
"Their?"

I thought we were part of one United Kingdom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, the UK is run by people from Scotland rather than the UK. Can't have it all ways![:D]

God told me to skin you alive.
http://www.ekroadclub.co.uk/

Asterixcp · June 2007

Just think of all the Scots who will continue to receive a good education and be able to migrate to very successful careers in England[;)]. Much as they have done for many generations.

Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..

marinyork · June 2007

Good for them. At least when England and Wales have been stupid enough to introduce the decimator fee, scotland is getting rid of it's tuition fees. Would be even better if they regulated the number of Media Studies places too.

oldwelshman · June 2007

Incorrect.
The welsh assembly also voted to subsidise welsh student fees by 85% so its only the English who pay [:D] and you conveniently forgot how much money the Norht Sea Oil has contributed to the UK.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

I will be fascinated to see how the Scottish contingent explain this one away:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 909775.ece

Extract:

BRITISH taxpayers are to meet the œ2 billion cost of reintroducing free university education in Scotland - but students from England and Wales will still have to pay the full fees.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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Fat Head · June 2007

The quicker us Scots and English get political independence from one another the better. Vivre Alec Salmond and independence.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Fat Head

The quicker us Scots and English get political independence from one another the better. Vivre Alec Salmond and independence.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Will you give up your seats in the Westminster Parliament after independence?

Scottish friends: Explain how this is fair...

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