First contact with a car today - Still alive

DavidTQ · June 2007

Hadmy first actual contact with a car today in the cycle lane along a 40mph A road, (primary position isnt really an option for that 4 miles, its the busiest road between two towns) Green rover with a 70 year old driver just merrily came up from behind and drifted into the cycle lane resulting in my rear view mirro angle being adjusted on his car body (no damage done to either) my fortunately wide feet rubbing on his rear tyre (im glad my feet are wide if it was my pedals I could have been dragged under I guess.) and resulting in me stabilising myself with my hand on his rear window (doubling up as an alert of my presence) and a shout of "watch it" Whilst the look on his face as he looked all around to see where the bang came from was priceless Id rather not have contact with a car to see it.

He pulled back into his lane and then drove at a sensible lane position for the rest of the time he was in sight.

Hairy Jock · June 2007

You were lucky, good to read that you are OK.

A hirsute Scotsman.

**************

Best advice I ever got was "better get a bike then"
Cycle commuting since 1994. Blog with cycle bits.

dangerousjules · June 2007

another good reason for pensioners re-taking their driving tests![:I]

dangerous jules.
god bless those pagans!

gordycp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dangerousjules

another good reason for pensioners re-taking their driving tests![:I]

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My elderly uncle lives in Ontario and has just passed his senior citizen re-test.

Sh4rkybloke · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gordy

My elderly uncle lives in Ontario and has just passed his senior citizen re-test.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You have to be tested to be a senior citizen?? [:0][:D][;)]

Nothing in life is foolproof, fools are ingenious

Cab · June 2007

I think that you get to know which cycle lanes on your regular commute are most prone to OAP drift, hence you learn when to stay well outside of them. There are a few on my regular routes on and around roundabouts which are likely to get you killed, one or two that just spring up out of nowhere and go around parking bays in odd lines, etc. Oh, and one that is almost physically impossible for motorists to avoid. Keeping out of those and only using cycle lanes which are less prone to drift/being cut across really helps.

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DavidTQ · June 2007

The problem in this situation isnt a lack of width of road at his point the roads wide enough to allow people to weave down the road quite nicely if they wish. I think there is a occaisional lack of respect for the cycle lanes existence. Its not unknown to come up behind someone merrily straddling the cycle lane whilst leaving enough space to the right for a bus to overtake them whilst staying in lane... (which doesnt happen)

I dont generally have people drift into me though. If Im going faster than traffic I can wait for a suitable safe width to allow for safety margin, and people coming from behind have generally seen me there a few times that trip already and they normally Give me plenty of space.

But being out in primary postion would result in adding to the traffic problems of an already over taxed road. Its well known as the worst traffic road in the area, but for cycling its actually quite a pleasant experience 95% of the time. The cycle lane is good for a constant relaxed and normally uninterupted journey. There are 2-3 points along the road where I do take primary position out of the cycle lane but I dont feel its appropriate to be out there full time when the cycle lane is generally far better to cycle along. The car lane seems to go 0-40-0-40-40, I dont fancy cycling like that or turning it to 0-20-0-20.

There are parts of my journey where primary position is very usefull and very appropriate, however I dont believe that causing a daily delay over 4 miles on such a busy road to avoid the once so far in 3 months pensioner incident is appropriate. The incident just wasnt in what I would consider a "trouble" area, it was just plain dozy driving.

Im also not sure I would have WANTED to be in primary position with that driver behind me, its not as if Im gutter hugging and hidden in the cycling lane as it is.

I do believe primary position is VERY usefull at times, but dont believe its the answer to all bad driving. Ive been stationary at traffic lights in a CAR before with my lights on just before sunset and had another car come up behind me and hit me from behind uphill at low speed. In that situation the guy was very appologetic and just couldnt explain how he had failed to see the CAR in front of him with its lights on stopped at a red light. But if a car with its lights on in primary position can be unspotted by another driver then would a bike in the same position fare better?

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidTQ
The car lane seems to go 0-40-0-40-40, I dont fancy cycling like that or turning it to 0-20-0-20.
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Very often 0-20-0-20 will get the traffic there just as fast as 0-40-0-40. Depends on how lont the 0's are, and how slow the traffic accelerates.

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DavidTQ · June 2007

0-20-0-20 might on occaision get the driver immedeatly behind me to the same point at the same time, it has happened on a few occaisions that Ive been around the same position at the end of the road as a car that was next to me at the beginning, but most of the time I would be causing delays. I dont care about causing few second delays to avoid a dangerous pinch point, But I will not hold up traffic for miles on end.

I've never seen any cyclist attempt to hold primary position for the length of the road Ive been travelling between these towns for work everyday for 12 years... The most I've seen is overtaking, claiming a space for turning right or controlling danger points, all of these I do. Even the serious roadies who filter down the right at certain points of the road still do use the cycle lane the majority of the time.

I do not agree with the stance of refusing to use any and all cycling facilities, I pick and choose which I will and wont use according to what I feel safest and most efficient. I have no problems taking primary when I feel its best for me. But I will also use the cycling lane where I feel thats best for me.

I dont believe that primary position is the be all and end all of avoiding collisions, cars still rear end each other in traffic! having a backside the size of a coach with lights on it doesnt stop coachs from being rear ended in traffic by the inattentive driver.

MY journey would be SLOWER without the cycle lane, the cycle lane most of the way allows me to hold my own top speed limited by my legs for the majority of the journey. Without the cycle lane I would be stuck at 0 at times and then holding up traffic the rest of the time trying to reaccelerate to my own top speed.

Tynancp · June 2007

yeah

a lot of this primary position mantra seems bollocks to me, you're supposed to be part of the traffic, not holding it up and making people hate cyclists, yeah move more central when it's called for and if you're travelling at the same speed but holding up traffic for no good reason if there's room for two car plus bike is silly imho, I certainly haven't seen any of that over the years

I'm assumign primary is right down the middle like you were a motorbike

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidTQ

0-20-0-20 might on occaision get the driver immedeatly behind me to the same point at the same time, it has happened on a few occaisions that Ive been around the same position at the end of the road as a car that was next to me at the beginning, but most of the time I would be causing delays. I dont care about causing few second delays to avoid a dangerous pinch point, But I will not hold up traffic for miles on end.

I've never seen any cyclist attempt to hold primary position for the length of the road Ive been travelling between these towns for work everyday for 12 years... The most I've seen is overtaking, claiming a space for turning right or controlling danger points, all of these I do. Even the serious roadies who filter down the right at certain points of the road still do use the cycle lane the majority of the time.

I do not agree with the stance of refusing to use any and all cycling facilities, I pick and choose which I will and wont use according to what I feel safest and most efficient. I have no problems taking primary when I feel its best for me. But I will also use the cycling lane where I feel thats best for me.

I dont believe that primary position is the be all and end all of avoiding collisions, cars still rear end each other in traffic! having a backside the size of a coach with lights on it doesnt stop coachs from being rear ended in traffic by the inattentive driver.

MY journey would be SLOWER without the cycle lane, the cycle lane most of the way allows me to hold my own top speed limited by my legs for the majority of the journey. Without the cycle lane I would be stuck at 0 at times and then holding up traffic the rest of the time trying to reaccelerate to my own top speed.
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Most of what you've written is perfectly reasonable, except for the comments about primary position. It should be your standard spot on the road, and if you're a considerate cyclist you'll be able to allow motorists to pass wherever appropriate without needlessly delaying them for more than a moment.

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan
I'm assumign primary is right down the middle like you were a motorbike
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

May I humbly suggest that before spouting on about how bad primary position is, you should work out what it is?

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Tynancp · June 2007

course you can, I've qualified my remarks and posted something about riding in whatever position

you can always tell me if you want to

magnatom · June 2007

To some extent I can understand an unwillingness to be in the primary position for a long stretch of road where you might hold up traffic. I agree to some extent that the secondary position can be best in these situations.

In my opinion the problem is that there is a cycle lane there at all. Cycle lanes provide drivers with a psychological safety cushion. They see the lane and think, 'oh the cyclist will be nice and safe in there, therefore I can ignore them. The lane says as long as I stay just to my side of the line the cyclist will be fine and dandy....'

It take the responsibility of having to ensure that there is enough room for the cyclist away from the driver and plants it firmly at the feet of the road planners (in the drivers mind). I would love a study to be done looking at cyclists cycling along a road with and without painted cycle lanes, where the cyclist takes the same road position. I would place money on the cyclist being given more room where there wasn't a cycle lane.

Of course in this instance the driver actually drifted into the cycle lane. Not much you can do about that (apart from a airzound maybe?)

Tynancp · June 2007

yes

I used to do fairly serious miles right through London North/South and there weren't many lanes then, it's just a virtual one, at the end of the day you have to assume that cars aren't going to drive that close to the curb and will avoid hitting you, I've had accidents but never one to do with how far I was from the curb, I'm confident and take no **** but the nearest I had to the one as in the OP was on the A2 coming in towards Elephant and Castle, traffic does 40 there and someone tore past me at 50/60 and cut very much across me to make a left hand filter, absolutely nothing I could have done, the idea of moving wide on a main road travelling at 40 every time I approach a turning or filter lane makes no sense to I'm afraid

I'm finding the roads safer this time around, there seem to be more cyclists and scooter and motor bikes and drivers seem to be more savvy and accepting of them, and I like most of the cycle lanes I travel in, some of the junctions are a plain nonsense mind

I love the ones that just stop before a big turning or junction, kinda like saying you couldn't manage the straight bits without a marked out lane but now you're on your own for the tricky bit

farrell · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not much you can do about that (apart from a airzound maybe?)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That would have killed the driver!

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DavidTQ · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by magnatom

To some extent I can understand an unwillingness to be in the primary position for a long stretch of road where you might hold up traffic. I agree to some extent that the secondary position can be best in these situations.

In my opinion the problem is that there is a cycle lane there at all. Cycle lanes provide drivers with a psychological safety cushion. They see the lane and think, 'oh the cyclist will be nice and safe in there, therefore I can ignore them. The lane says as long as I stay just to my side of the line the cyclist will be fine and dandy....'

It take the responsibility of having to ensure that there is enough room for the cyclist away from the driver and plants it firmly at the feet of the road planners (in the drivers mind). I would love a study to be done looking at cyclists cycling along a road with and without painted cycle lanes, where the cyclist takes the same road position. I would place money on the cyclist being given more room where there wasn't a cycle lane.

Of course in this instance the driver actually drifted into the cycle lane. Not much you can do about that (apart from a airzound maybe?)
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The problem is that if there wasnt a cycling lane along this road the drivers like to drive in allsorts of interesting positions within a lane there would be no clear path to the left or the right of the cars youd be constantly out in the other lane dodging on coming vehicles with the motorbikes in order to make progress.

The cycling lane makes my journey far more pleasant than it would be having to push my way through with all the cars it makes my journey and theirs faster.

You can call me lazy cyclist but I have yet to see ANY other cyclist down here taking cabs stance of default primary position on this road.

My default position is where I judge to be safest and most efficient. I am very prepared to take primary where I feel the need, Im not about to be intimidated into pushing my bike across a junction. But im also more than happy to take the cycle lane where I feel its appropriate.

One of the nicest things about cycling is the cycle lane taking a great deal of traffic stress out of the commute. I love having what is effectively an open road in front of me.

Tynancp · June 2007

yep, a few inches outside the drain covers does for me

cars don't drive close to the curb as a matter of course anyway unless the road is narrow

snorri · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

Most of what you've written is perfectly reasonable, except for the comments about primary position. It should be your standard spot on the road, and if you're a considerate cyclist you'll be able to allow motorists to pass wherever appropriate without needlessly delaying them for more than a moment.
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I tend to go along with DavidTQ, ie adjust technique for varying road/traffic conditions. You seem to be suggesting that we move from primary to secondary to allow motor traffic travelling at 40+ mph to overtake, then drift out to primary position again. This sounds distinctly hazardous on roads with a fairly constant motor traffic flow.

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DavidTQ

The problem is that if there wasnt a cycling lane along this road the drivers like to drive in allsorts of interesting positions within a lane there would be no clear path to the left or the right of the cars youd be constantly out in the other lane dodging on coming vehicles with the motorbikes in order to make progress.

The cycling lane makes my journey far more pleasant than it would be having to push my way through with all the cars it makes my journey and theirs faster.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't know this road so you have better local knowledge than me, so there may in this instance be a good case for a cycle lane. I just feel that a lot of lanes especially in urban areas cause more harm than good.

In general I agree with taking the secondary position on roads where you would be causing an obstruction or be causing a lot of frustration. I think sticking to the primary position in cases like this can have significant negative effects on a cyclists safety. The most important thing is observation and having a get out route if things turn nasty!

I'm sure your not a lazy cyclist! I think the most important thing is that you think about what you do, you do your best to keep safe and follow a few basic principles. I think you sound a much batter cyclist than the chap in the video! (from my left hook thread)

Tynan,

My major concern about cycling that close to the edge (apart from the crap you often find there) is the lack of a get out route. If something happens and you loose all your space to your right where do you go? What happens if there is a barrier or a wall next to your left hand side? Would you always have the ability and the time to jump a curb instead of crashing into it?

There have been a few occasions where I was glad I had a little extra space to play with on the left. (edit) The secondary position (about 1m out from the curb) is best in my opinion.

Tynancp · June 2007

there's a couple of feet to the curb and if **** really happens, person goes flying onto the pavement as a final escape, of course I wouldn't let myself be trapped against a wall etc etc, you ride what's given you

I take what's available but I'm perfectly happy with that if that's all there is

A fair amount of my route is bus lane as well which is nice

I use to do 9k miles a year from Tottenham to Wimbledon and back and never had any problems with my position

I'm finding this primary position stance hard to believe, yeah I pull out there if it suits me and the traffic is slow enough but I've never seen anyone do that in traffic moving properly, it sounds suicidal rather than safe

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri
I tend to go along with DavidTQ, ie adjust technique for varying road/traffic conditions. You seem to be suggesting that we move from primary to secondary to allow motor traffic travelling at 40+ mph to overtake, then drift out to primary position again. This sounds distinctly hazardous on roads with a fairly constant motor traffic flow.
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I'm sugggesting that if the traffic is 0-40-0-40 then my default position would be primary. If the traffic increases in speed I'd look to move to a place to allow passing, as the traffic slows I'd be looking to claim safe road space. Not sure why thats controversial. I can't say anything definitive about that particular road, of course, but I can say thats how I ride pretty nearly all the time, and the number of incidences of people carelessly passing dangerously closely when riding thus is nearly nil.

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Tynancp · June 2007

moving in and out of the path of traffic changing speed between 0 and 40mph isn't controversial

I'd love to watch that, it sounds rather stressful to me

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Tynan

moving in and out of the path of traffic changing speed between 0 and 40mph isn't controversial

I'd love to watch that, it sounds rather stressful to me
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Not in the least. If the traffic is slowing its very easy to claim your road space. If the rest of the traffic starts to speed up then you're safer for having done so, because you can choose the safest place to start allowing overtaking. It doesn't delay car traffic at all, and it makes for a safer ride. Really, whats stressful about it?

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snorri · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri
traffic travelling at 40+ mph to overtake, then drift out to primary position again. This sounds distinctly hazardous on roads with a fairly constant motor traffic flow.
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I'm sugggesting that if the traffic is 0-40-0-40 then my default position would be primary.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree, sorry, I misunderstood you earlier.[:)]
My main worries come with the 40+ traffic!

Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri
I agree, sorry, I misunderstood you earlier.[:)]
My main worries come with the 40+ traffic!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No worries!

On faster roads, especially where theres poor visibility, primary position is often a bad idea. Totally agree there.

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First contact with a car today - Still alive

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