An example of a left hook

magnatom · June 2007

Here is an 'good' example of a left hook.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KaVHUrSvx-o

Amazingly the cyclist didn't flinch despite it being very close. If he was traveling a couple of mph faster that could have been very nasty!

I know I would have been pretty angry. This guy must have a lot of Zen

bianchi 2007 · June 2007

that sort of thing happens to me alot, twice last saturday riding from hampstead to kings cross, 1st woman in a 4x4 and 1 mile later by a car full of people in a honda.

cyclingnut · June 2007

More importantly, where's your video gone of your mate riding on the path?

Bloke on a bikecp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cyclingnut

More importantly, where's your video gone of your mate riding on the path?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ah yes.
I thought I'd seen that juntion somewhere before.

--
Basil W Brush

magnatom · June 2007

Cyclingnut,

I decided to take that off as it was a little controversial. I am about to take part in some publicity (delayed again but within the next couple of weeks [V]) for the Give Cyclists Room campaign, with First Glasgow. An article in the local paper will be providing the link to my videos and I wanted to reduce the likelihood of idiots flaming me for the video. (The journalist is a local cyclist so it should be quite positive)

I still have it on file and will probably repost it once the campaign has passed. This was definitely not me backing down!!

magnatom · June 2007

Of course if anyone wants a copy of the video (as an educational tool of course!) I'm sure I can provide a copy. You could always post it on your own youtube if you wanted [:D].

cyclingnut · June 2007

Ahh shame, hope to see it again soon then. Always cheers me up when I need it!

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cyclingnut

Ahh shame, hope to see it again soon then. Always cheers me up when I need it!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's still on you tube, so if you want access to it I could just set you as a friend to allow you access.

Cab · June 2007

Outrageous.

How far out was that cyclist? Could he have minimise the chances of that happening by being further out do you think?

The cyclists road position doesn't excuse that motorist for an instant, you understand. But assuming that other road users are going to be morons, road positioning is really important.

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magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cab

Outrageous.

How far out was that cyclist? Could he have minimise the chances of that happening by being further out do you think?

The cyclists road position doesn't excuse that motorist for an instant, you understand. But assuming that other road users are going to be morons, road positioning is really important.

Free baby elephants for every citizen

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I totally agree cab. I don't use the cycle lanes on that road as it just encourages cars to do that sort of thing.
I am actually tempted to send this video to the local council to highlight the dangers of this type of lane if cyclists use them.
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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by magnatom
I am actually tempted to send this video to the local council to highlight the dangers of this type of lane if cyclists use them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Can't do any harm to do so. Go for it

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magnatom · June 2007

OK I think I will write to the council. Can anyone direct me to resources for good cycle lane design (Ideally with some clout in Scotland as well).

I will search for documents but if someone already has details tha would be great.

njc97 · June 2007

Cab - I don't think you can criticise the cyclist's position. IMO the cyclist should be over to the left and not preventing cars such as the previous one from overtaking. Unfortunately this means that idiots can pull off moves like that but the alternative is that cars would still overtake, but be closer to the cyclist whilst doing so.

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by njc97

Cab - I don't think you can criticise the cyclist's position. IMO the cyclist should be over to the left and not preventing cars such as the previous one from overtaking. Unfortunately this means that idiots can pull off moves like that but the alternative is that cars would still overtake, but be closer to the cyclist whilst doing so.
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I disagree. The cyclist wasn't even in the secondary position. He was in the gutter where the cycle lane was telling him to be. It just isn't safe there as he had no wriggle room. Also most cars at this junction turn the way the car did (heading towards a school), so if I was cycling past that junction I would pull out further on approaching it to somewhere close to the primary position. Of course I would return to the secondary position when it was safe to do so.

Hairy Jock · June 2007

Watching the video closely, I get the impression that it would have made any difference where the cyclist was positioned that driver wasn't slowing down to take the junction and was going to cut in no matter who was there. It is just a shame that the video wasn't sharp enough to make out the registration plate, this is a driver that need to be stopped before they kill someone.

Buggi · June 2007

i'm gonna show that to my mate who can't understand why we cycle away from the kerb.

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domtyler · June 2007

He was probably used to that kind of manoeuvre, obviously an habitual gutter-snipe.

njc97, are you saying that cyclists should cycle in the gutter, putting themselves in the most dangerous place so as not to impede the far more important journey of car drivers? Tw@t!

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by njc97

Cab - I don't think you can criticise the cyclist's position. IMO the cyclist should be over to the left and not preventing cars such as the previous one from overtaking. Unfortunately this means that idiots can pull off moves like that but the alternative is that cars would still overtake, but be closer to the cyclist whilst doing so.
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[:0]

No. No. No. No. No.

Really.

No.

The cyclists prime duty is to be in the safest road position, and the safest road posution on most roads is the primary position, where you're not preventing motorists from overtaking but ensuring that to pass you they have to do precisely that, i.e. overtake you, actually pull out to go around you. By being further out you ensure that unless the motorist wants to be cocky you get passed with more space; essentially you get rid of the carelessly close overtaking manoevres (99% or more) and you're left with the extremely rare intentionally close one.

Get cyclecraft. Read it. Please. And don't go out riding on the roads till you've done so.

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Cab · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Buggi

i'm gonna show that to my mate who can't understand why we cycle away from the kerb.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good idea. Its an excellent example.

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BentMikey · June 2007

njc97, I'll also say you're wrong here. I reckon you ought to rethink the way you're cycling if that's what you really believe.

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Jacomus-rides-Gen · June 2007

njc97, I must also vigourusly disagree with you opinion on where cyclists should ride. Taking the primary position is the best way to cycle safely in most traffic situations, and if you think that gutter-hugging is the safest way to progress I would have to seriously question your sense of self preservation and your spatial awareness.

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magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Hairy Jock

It is just a shame that the video wasn't sharp enough to make out the registration plate, this is a driver that need to be stopped before they kill someone.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you look at the title of the video on youtube you will notice the registration number there (SE03CHC [:D]). Youtube degrades the video quite a lot. On the original footage the registration is quite clear. I'm not sure if it's worth reporting though.

magnatom · June 2007

I've just had a thought (very dangerous [:0]). Quite a few of us now have helmet cameras and we often capture dangerous driving/cycling etc. Many of us also agree that cycle lanes are often dangerous, poorly designed and poorly maintained. The incident I captured is one example of poor lane design which can contribute to serious incidents which this almost became.

So maybe we should collect video of poor cycle lanes and, if we see them, incidents such as the left hook I witnessed. We could then pass these on to relevant parties as examples of where cycle lane design has gone wrong.

What do people think? Does anyone else have relevant videos?

Aidocp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by magnatom

OK I think I will write to the council. Can anyone direct me to resources for good cycle lane design (Ideally with some clout in Scotland as well).

I will search for documents but if someone already has details tha would be great.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Magnatom,

Cycling by Design by the Scot Exec might be a good place to start. In my correspondence with councils they refer to it often.

If I had a baby elephant, who would take it for walks?

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Aido

Magnatom,

Cycling by Design by the Scot Exec might be a good place to start. In my correspondence with councils they refer to it often.

If I had a baby elephant, who would take it for walks?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks Aido. I've had a quick look at it (I wish you could get it in pdf!) and I couldn't find anything specific about placement of cycle-lanes i.e. not in the gutter! I will have a closer look.

snorri · June 2007

Excellent video magnatom[;)]

Cycle Friendly Infrastructure, Pages 44-47 discusses on road lanes. These should be 2m width "where possible".
It strikes me these cycle lanes create the impression of three parallel paths along the route,one each for cars, cyclists and pedestrians. For the most part, motorists can safely ignore pedestrian activity in the pedestrian lane, provision of a cycle lane may well cause the motorist to tend to also ignore cyclists.
Take care on the bike, your safety is more important than a good video.[;)]

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by snorri

Excellent video magnatom[;)]

Cycle Friendly Infrastructure, Pages 44-47 discusses on road lanes. These should be 2m width "where possible".
It strikes me these cycle lanes create the impression of three parallel paths along the route,one each for cars, cyclists and pedestrians. For the most part, motorists can safely ignore pedestrian activity in the pedestrian lane, provision of a cycle lane may well cause the motorist to tend to also ignore cyclists.
Take care on the bike, your safety is more important than a good video.[;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the reference. I might go out and measure the width of the cycle lane now!!

I agree that there is significant psychology involved with cycle lanes. If a driver sees a cycle lane and a cyclist in it he does appear to blank out the cyclist in a 'they are nice and safe in their lane so I can ignore them' way. That's why when I cycle along that road I intentionally cycle just outside the lane. This way drivers might get a little annoyed at that 'damn cyclist who can't keep in the lane' but at least it means they have noticed me!

Archcp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by magnatom

I've just had a thought (very dangerous [:0]). Quite a few of us now have helmet cameras and we often capture dangerous driving/cycling etc. Many of us also agree that cycle lanes are often dangerous, poorly designed and poorly maintained. The incident I captured is one example of poor lane design which can contribute to serious incidents which this almost became.

So maybe we should collect video of poor cycle lanes and, if we see them, incidents such as the left hook I witnessed. We could then pass these on to relevant parties as examples of where cycle lane design has gone wrong.

What do people think? Does anyone else have relevant videos?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Good idea. I think I might have a clip of one of the daftest bits I see here in York, will have a hunt for it this afternoon...

I've yet to capture anything really dramatic, but I am storing up my films and when I have enough, I'd like to bung together a few illustrating the things we all gripe about - bad road sufaces, bad 'facilities', cars passing too close, wandering pedestrians... All with suitably witty captions of course...[;)]

And for fairness, I will include the bits that show me doing stuff that I'd regard afterwards as daft...[:I]

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

jedster · June 2007

I'd agree with everyone critiising the road positioning but would add one point - as well as being routinely further out, I would tend to move even further towards the centre as I approached a junction. This is both because of the left hookers but also because it makes you more visible to people joining from the left and gives you more room to avoid a SMIDSY.

By the way - do you think cycle lanes should be suspended at junctions and restart at the other side? I'm thinking it would help educate inexperienced cyclists and reduce the risks from cyclists "undertaking"/fast filtering across junctions.

J

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

And for fairness, I will include the bits that show me doing stuff that I'd regard afterwards as daft...[:I]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You don't do anything daft, surely? [;)]

It might be worth getting the a sticky thread somewhere for examples of bad cycling facilities and related incidents (although there are quite a few stickies already!)

Of course of anyone had the time to create a wee website where we could post our videos who knows where it would end up....[:D]

P.S. I just don't have the time!!

magnatom · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jedster

I'd agree with everyone critiising the road positioning but would add one point - as well as being routinely further out, I would tend to move even further towards the centre as I approached a junction. This is both because of the left hookers but also because it makes you more visible to people joining from the left and gives you more room to avoid a SMIDSY.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
By the way - do you think cycle lanes should be suspended at junctions and restart at the other side? I'm thinking it would help educate inexperienced cyclists and reduce the risks from cyclists "undertaking"/fast filtering across junctions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In an ideal world I wouldn't want cycle lanes at all, but yes I don't think cycle lanes should cross junctions.

Maybe leading up to a junction the word Primary should appear on the tarmac, indicating that cyclists are advised to take the primary position if possible and where safe.

Thinking further about this if the word 'Primary' was written on the tarmac (officially of course) at junctions like this people would start to get curious about what it meant. They would investigate and find out what the primary position is, and why cyclists need to take that position. What do people think? Would signs like this (advisory of course!!) help less experience cyclists?

An example of a left hook

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