The cold war has started again

Gary Askwith · June 2007

From the BBC ( please no simon not again[xx(]) Documentary series 'The Trap'

This programme also explored how economic freedom had been used in Russia, and the problems this had introduced. A set of policies known as "shock therapy" were brought in mainly by outsiders, which had the effect of destroying the social safety net that existed in most other western nations. An economic crisis escalated during the 1990s, and some people were paid in goods rather than money. Yeltsin was accused by his parliamentary deputies of "economic genocide", due to the large numbers of people now too poor to eat. Yeltsin responded to this by removing parliament's power and becoming increasingly autocratic. At the same time, many formerly state owned industries were sold off to private businesses, often at a fraction of their real cost. Ordinary people would sell shares which to them were worthless for cash, without appreciating their true value. This ended up with the rise of the Oligarchs-super rich businessmen who attributed their rise to the sell-offs of the '90s. It resulted in a polarisation of society into the poor and ultra-rich, and indirectly led to a more autocratic style of government under Vladimir Putin, which, while less free, promised to provide people with dignity and basic living requirements.

There was a similar review of post-war Iraq, in which an even more extreme "shock therapy" was employed-the removal from government of all Ba'ath party employees and the introduction of economic models which followed the simplified economic model of human beings outlined in the first two programmes-this had the result of immediately disintegrating Iraqi society and the rise of two strongly autocratic insurgencies, one based on Sunni-Ba'athist ideals and another based on revolutionary Shi'a philosophies.

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

ankev1 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Feedingstationvolunteer

[
what about the British empire occuping half of the world for 80 years
oppressing the natives and destroying their cultures
executing their heroes (Dedan Kimathi)in Kenya.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mean what about the British Empire as an alternative model or are we somehow supposed to be irrelevantly paralysed with white man's guilt so we can't criticise the modern Russian idiocy?

But as you insist: the British Empire was probably unique in that it presided over its own dissolution. The UK still maintains more or less friendly relations with most of its former colonies and dominions. The Empire also (probably incidentally) provided some countries e.g. India with better administration than they had before enjoyed. We taught them cricket and rugby.

The Soviet Empire was a bit of non-starter by comparison, wasn't it?

simoncp · June 2007

Originally posted by Gary Askwith

From the BBC ( please no simon not again[xx(]) Documentary series 'The Trap'...

The Rusians walked into 'the trap' of communism all by themselves and the sad state they are still in is a direct consequence of that terrible mistake. No point blaming the US or anyone else. The fact that the Russians are so incompetent at governing themselves is a good reason why their opinions about how others run their affairs are worthless.

I don't need a TV station to tell me why Russia is a basket case.

Gary Askwith · June 2007

Duuuhh dont complicate things George [xx(]

http://bifsniff.com/images/cartoons/simplesimon.gif[url][/url]

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

alecstilleyedye · June 2007

the cold war was just war between the two superpowers byproxy. one power funds the government of a small state (eg nicaragua) while the other one funds the guerilla "freedom fighters" who look to overthrow it.

we now have a legacy of small states with unpallatable governments (eg saddam's iraq) armed by the two superpowers. one could look at the war in iraq as a us/iran war fought on another country's sovereign territory.

if i had a better signature, i'd use that instead

Feedingstationvolunteer · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ankev1

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Feedingstationvolunteer

[
what about the British empire occuping half of the world for 80 years
oppressing the natives and destroying their cultures
executing their heroes (Dedan Kimathi)in Kenya.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Do you mean what about the British Empire as an alternative model or are we somehow supposed to be irrelevantly paralysed with white man's guilt so we can't criticise the modern Russian idiocy?

But as you insist: the British Empire was probably unique in that it presided over its own dissolution. The UK still maintains more or less friendly relations with most of its former colonies and dominions. The Empire also (probably incidentally) provided some countries e.g. India with better administration than they had before enjoyed. We taught them cricket and rugby.

The Soviet Empire was a bit of non-starter by comparison, wasn't it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

so its right for the British to torture and maim the natives so that they can learn cricket and rugby ?[:(]

ankev1 · June 2007

I'm sure we did do some torturing and maiming but it is infantile to try to define the whole history of the British Empire in such terms. Additionally it's got nothing to do with Putin's attempt to reactivate the cold war. If the British Empire is upsetting you then start a thread on it.

Flying_Monkey · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by simoncp
The Rusians walked into 'the trap' of communism all by themselves and the sad state they are still in is a direct consequence of that terrible mistake. No point blaming the US or anyone else. The fact that the Russians are so incompetent at governing themselves is a good reason why their opinions about how others run their affairs are worthless.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Apart from your woeful lack of knowledge of the reasons for the Bolshevik revolution, it may have escaped your notice but Russia stopped being a communist state some time ago, so you cannot just ignore more recent history because it suits your ideological view of the world.

Certainly, the legacies of the Soviet systems are enormous and ex-communist officials very powerful, but equally important is what happened afterwards. And this was, as Gary's quote suggested, the attempt to impose a 'shock therapy' neoliberal economic system by US and other economic advisors (under Yeltsin), as if this would somehow in itself turn Russia into a mature democracy. What happened instead was massive corruption, the wholesale plundering of state assets by thenew 'oligarchs' and the gangsterisation of society under Yeltsin. This then provoked a backlash which allowed a combination of ex-communists and nationalists to take control, and roll back all the democratic reforms that had taken place, in the name of a 'greater Russia'. This includes all sorts of territorial claims, stirring up of Russian minorities in neighbouring countries, and a reworking of history to argue that Russia is actually responsible for all the innovation and invention in world history and more besides (including the rehabilitation of Stalin as a great Russian leader in the tradition of Peter the Great).

Russia's been knobbled from inside and outside. These things aren't contradictory and you can't get away from either. I have no idea what the hell we do about it now... Putin is ruthless, slippery and very clever and the opposition is tiny, diverse and utterly disorganised. In addition the global superpower, the USA now blown away its moral credibility. Perhaps it's time for the EU to step up and woo Russia?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Eat My Dust · June 2007

This whole issue is about Putin saying that he is going to aim his nukes at European cities. Is there any evidence that they haven't been aimed at these cities all along?

SNAPS

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Eat My Dust

This whole issue is about Putin saying that he is going to aim his nukes at European cities. Is there any evidence that they haven't been aimed at these cities all along?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Apparently they are no longer pre targeted at European cities. Targetting will take all of about 5 minutes.

The cold war has started again

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