Should Dentists have a quota of NHS work imposed ?

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> BBC NEWS
Call for dentists' NHS-work quota
By Nick Triggle
BBC News, health reporter

NHS dentists should face quotas forcing them to do more NHS work rather than private treatments, campaigners say.

Patient Concern said quotas should be imposed as figures show that for the first time under 50% of NHS dentists' income is now from NHS work.

Labour MP Kevin Barron, of the Commons health committee, said dentists had a "moral obligation" to give the NHS more as it costs œ175,000 to train them.

But dentists said quotas would be "unfair and unworkable".

Earnings rise

According to latest figures from the NHS Information Centre, NHS dentists on average now earn about 52% of their income from private patients - the first time private work has accounted for a greater share.

That compares with 42% in 1999-2000 and the rise has helped push average earnings up to œ86,000 - a rise of 11% in a year.

[Dentists] just do not have the same public sector ethos that GPs do for example
Kevin Barron MP

An analysis of figures from the General Dental Council register also suggest the number of dentists treating solely private patients has soared by over a third in the last two years.

There is no exact figure for how many are doing this, but it is estimated to be between 2,500 and 3,500.

This compares with the 21,111 dentists with NHS contracts - a slight increase on previous years - but a figure which still leaves 2m people without access to NHS care.

Mr Barron, who chairs the Commons health committee, said: "I think [dentists] are letting the country and taxpayer down.

"The profession should take a good look at itself. [Dentists] just do not have the same public sector ethos that GPs do for example."

'Long-running problem'

Joyce Robins, co-director of Patient Concern, said: "Access to NHS dentistry has been a long-running problem, I don't see why we can't impose quotas on dentists who work in the health service to ensure they do more NHS work."

She said this quota should be imposed on new dentists for several years before they could opt out, although dentists should still be allowed to do some private work.

Professor Jimmy Steele, who teaches dental students at the University of Newcastle, said a quota on everyone would not be fair on dentists who had perhaps spent a lot of their career in the NHS.

The reason dentists are turning towards private work is that they have been unhappy with the way the NHS [system] has worked for years
Lester Ellman, of the British Dental Association

But he agreed new dentists could be tied in to a certain amount of NHS work for a period after qualifying, suggesting five or 10 years.

"They [dental students] are heavily supported by the taxpayer through long and expensive training so do have a duty to the NHS, but when I put that to my students they are sometimes surprised by the notion."

But Lester Ellman, of the British Dental Association, said quotas would be "unfair and unworkable".

"The reason dentists are turning towards private work is that they have been unhappy with the way the NHS [system] has worked for years.

"They do not get time to treat the patients properly."

A spokeswoman for the Department of Health said: "It would not be reasonable to prevent dentists carrying out private work if they are meeting their NHS commitments."

She added a new system introduced last year was designed to give the NHS more funds if dentists left the NHS.

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Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/h ... 711379.stm

Published: 2007/06/03 23:29:37 GMT

¸ BBC MMVII
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

"I'd clean my car with a baby elephant - if I had a baby elephant !"

Smeggers · June 2007

Yes

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

Unknown · June 2007

Yes . It sounds pretty reasonable to me .

http://www.eastyorkshireclassic.co.uk/n ... index.aspx

stelvio · June 2007

I look forward to having a good laugh if any minister really is dim enough to try it.

Melvil · June 2007

Me too. Great idea in principle but the dentists won't stand for it. The medical profession has become too powerful, I think. Look at the fiasco with out of hours services, for example. They want to have their cake and eat it.

******************************************************************************
See Baby Elephants and more at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/47331519@N00/

simoncp · June 2007

No. Why should anyone be required to sell their labour to a particular employer? Dentists should be as free as the rest of us to use their state education acquired skills in the employ of any employrer they like. Also, many foreign trained dentists work here. They have no obligations, 'moral' or otherwise, to work for the government of the UK, having been trained abroad at no expense to the UK taxpayer.

Joe Sacco · June 2007

If teeth are covered under NHS, which I feel they should be as they are quite important!, then NHS treatment needs to be available. If all dentists decided not to do NHS then how would that work? Unless you have private dentists and NHS employed dentists.

linfordlunchbox · June 2007

I take it you don't have any problem getting an NHS dentist Simon ?

I have to take my kids 20 miles down the motorway to see theirs, and I live in a large town full of dental practices

Smeggers · June 2007

Cue another 'free market economy' lecture from our resident animal loving Porsche driver

.........

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

I take it you don't have any problem getting an NHS dentist Simon ?

I have to take my kids 20 miles down the motorway to see theirs, and I live in a large town full of dental practices
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I do have an NHS trouble getting an NHS dentist. NHS dentistry has effectively been scrapped where I live in the last 6 or 7 years. Nobody should be forced to work for the government just because the government cannot provide the services it has said it will provide. Dentists should be as free as the rest of us to choose who to sell their labour to.

As for the cost of the state education of a dentist it would be interesting to know how much tax a dentist pays over a career. If dentists are required to pay back part of their training costs by donating labour to the government then why not extend this to all other graduates? Of course, the government will not have much call for the efforts of thousands of media studies and tourism graduates, so perhaps they will have to pay the government back in hard cash rather than a few hours labour a week.

Unknown · June 2007

Methinks comparisons between doctors and dentists are somewhat misleading. GP's make well over 100K pa out of NHS worth. Dentists make 86K out of mainly private work. I suspect that if they were offered contracts similar to the GP's they would be equally committed to NHS work.

tonic_water · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> BBC NEWS
...
Mr Barron, who chairs the Commons health committee, said: "I think [dentists] are letting the country and taxpayer down.
...
"The profession should take a good look at itself. [Dentists] just do not have the same public sector ethos that GPs do for example."
...

"They [dental students] are heavily supported by the taxpayer through long and expensive training so do have a duty to the NHS, but when I put that to my students they are sometimes surprised by the notion."
...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/hi/h ... 711379.stm

¸ BBC MMVII
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dentists not having the same public sector ethos as GPs? That's almost certainly a good thing, unless he meant public service ethos which isn't a phrase I would readily apply to GPs anyway.

--
Well we're alright for tonic water aren't we? We're having a tonic water party!

redcogs · June 2007

Ever since the NHS original doctors contract was drawn up in 1948, when Nye Bevan had to "stuff their mouths with gold" to 'encourage' the consultants etc to do the decent thing and actually treat patients without the profit motive being involved.

Then, they were overwhelmingly against the move towards collective health care of course, and some, it seems, still are. Very unfortunate.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

the consultants etc to do the decent thing and actually treat patients without the profit motive being involved.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, they agreed to work for nothing then, like the GPs?

stelvio · June 2007

I would be very interested if someone could explain how dentists could be compelled to treat NHS patients.
Knuckledusters maybe ?

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

I would be very interested if someone could explain how dentists could be compelled to treat NHS patients.
Knuckledusters maybe ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Those doing some NHS work could have the contracts altered to that they did a minimum quota of NMS work. I have a feeling however that this might be illegal under the Competition Act.

terry huckle · June 2007

My dentist left the NHS some years back. I am convinced that under the new regime of dental care, my teeth have been better maintained, at a cost comparable to or even less than NHS dentistry.

I sold my skills to the highest bidder, and though no longer an employee, still do so as a self employed contractor....why shouldn`t a dentist or anyone else not have that freedom?

Canrider · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So, they agreed to work for nothing then<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Considering the quality of dentistry in this country, that seems like a reasonable sum..

Zing! [}:)]

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

Smeggers · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by terry huckle

I sold my skills to the highest bidder, and though no longer an employee, still do so as a self employed contractor....why shouldn`t a dentist or anyone else not have that freedom?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

.... because the ENTIRE population does not require your services.

Social responsibility has to be morally considered by the 'state'.

Edit: Or to put more simply, because poor people need dentists too.

Hickory Dickory Dock,
A baby elephant ran up the clock,
The clock is being repaired

stelvio · June 2007

Originally posted by terry huckle

My dentist left the NHS some years back. I am convinced that under the new regime of dental care, my teeth have been better maintained, at a cost comparable to or even less than NHS dentistry.

My experience also.
Fewer fillings, regular detailed checks, time to ask questions, and the waiting room is somewhere to wait rather than to endure.
And for less money than most people spend on booze.

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Canrider

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">So, they agreed to work for nothing then<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Considering the quality of dentistry in this country, that seems like a reasonable sum..

Zing! [}:)]

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

So, you too were offered steel false teeth by your NHS dentist. [:0]

simoncp · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

I would be very interested if someone could explain how dentists could be compelled to treat NHS patients.
Knuckledusters maybe ?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Those doing some NHS work could have the contracts altered to that they did a minimum quota of NMS work. I have a feeling however that this might be illegal under the Competition Act.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Given the government's record when it altered GP's contracts so they now do less NHS work for more money perhaps the best option would be to leave well alone. The NHS doesn't need another costly fiasco.

Phil Lighterfuel · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

Methinks comparisons between doctors and dentists are somewhat misleading. GP's make well over 100K pa out of NHS worth. Dentists make 86K out of mainly private work. I suspect that if they were offered contracts similar to the GP's they would be equally committed to NHS work.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Let's not be missleading....GP's make 100k+ and out of that have to pay staff, own salary, expenses, training, etc, etc. The actual cash they receive is dependant on silly targets set by the government. In the majority of cases they do not simply pocket 100k. A dentist's salary (avge) is 86k. It choose to be a dentist any day (except I didn't get the grades[:(] and had to be an engineer instead)

Tony666 · June 2007

My dentist does mainly take NHS work - and he is bloody good to. But he has had to close he books as the NHS fund him for so many patients i.e. they are buying treatment for x number of people. Until he gets additional funding he can't take on anyone new as he would be working at a loss - I guess a bit like doing unpaid overtime. Private treatment is all well and good but there are many who simply cannot afford to pay it - like œ110 for a filling.

Should Dentists have a quota of NHS work imposed ?

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