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Isn't the CTC a shocker!

J.Y.KellyJ.Y.Kelly Posts: 405
edited June 2007 in Campaign
Membership cards either not arriving at all or being sent out with incorrect expiry dates. Mine was 6 months expired when I recieved it.
What are they up to? I remember when it was a venerable institution, not the slapdash money grabbing monster it has now become.
(I've resigned by the way. I only joined for the insurance this time round, and "no fee" lawyers are just as good. My son has just used one.)

gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.
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  • AsterixcpAsterixcp Posts: 6,251
    SO.. Your card was expired when you received it and now the CTC has transmogified itself into a 'slapdash, money grubbing monster'.

    This regardless of their recent, successful campaign concerning changes to the Highway code. Presumably the 'money grubbing' is due to their collections in aid of the cyclist defence fund?



    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
  • simoncpsimoncp Posts: 3,260
    Are they having problems again? A year or two back my membership lapsed for 4 months because they didn't take the automatic payment we agreed. When it was sorted out they told me that they had hired a new company to deal with membership and the problems were a thing of the past.
  • simoncpsimoncp Posts: 3,260
    By the way J Y Kelly, the CTC insurance provides 3rd party cover for you, not just access to a no win no fee lawyer if you are the wronged party.
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    Yawn.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • ChrisKHChrisKH Posts: 1,717
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simoncp</i>

    By the way J Y Kelly, the CTC insurance provides 3rd party cover for you, not just access to a no win no fee lawyer if you are the wronged party.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That's as maybe Simon, but it took two phone calls to excise the 3rd party documentation via the contact number at CTC when I phoned them on Saturday. This was because, from what I can make out, the person I spoke to is primarily interested in Personal Injury claims and not an accident scenario (like me), when you haven't been injured. It seems the phone contacts are Russell Jones and Walker employees who have been given 'instructions' by CTC but obviously aren't CTC employees. Their heart isn't in it unless you have a personal injury.

    Instructions from the person I spoke to, were either:-

    a) Claim off the driver's insurance (as I was hit by a car). But this fails to take into account that the insurers won't talk to you unless you have insurance or an insurance contact yourself (even if it is just third party).

    b) Take out a County Court small claims action (I think) to recover the cost of the bike which is all very well, but what am I paying the CTC fees for?



    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    Not good.

    I've asked Matt Mallinder of CTC Towers to come to this thread and answer the points made, but, in the mean time, if you want to send me details (including membership numbers) by PM then I'll do my best to sort it out.

    ......and it's just occured to me that you might not know I'm on the National Council....
  • J.Y.KellyJ.Y.Kelly Posts: 405
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    Yawn.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can yawn, but it's not you that's had the bother. EVERYTHING this poor excuse for a cycling club does, is through contractors. I'd go even further by saying it's not even a club any more. The "club" element is the local DAs, who the CTC are doing their best to ignore.

    gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    the last AGM saw the members roll up in numbers to ensure that it remained theirs...
  • I'm in the CTC and love the idea of it and wouldn't cycle without the 3rd party insurance, but I would be pretty weeed off if i had been told by their contracted legal team to file in the small claims court myself.

    Dan
    Dan
  • simoncpsimoncp Posts: 3,260
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ChrisKH</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simoncp</i>

    By the way J Y Kelly, the CTC insurance provides 3rd party cover for you, not just access to a no win no fee lawyer if you are the wronged party.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That's as maybe Simon, but it took two phone calls to excise the 3rd party documentation via the contact number at CTC when I phoned them on Saturday. This was because, from what I can make out, the person I spoke to is primarily interested in Personal Injury claims and not an accident scenario (like me), when you haven't been injured. It seems the phone contacts are Russell Jones and Walker employees who have been given 'instructions' by CTC but obviously aren't CTC employees. Their heart isn't in it unless you have a personal injury.

    Instructions from the person I spoke to, were either:-

    a) Claim off the driver's insurance (as I was hit by a car). But this fails to take into account that the insurers won't talk to you unless you have insurance or an insurance contact yourself (even if it is just third party).

    b) Take out a County Court small claims action (I think) to recover the cost of the bike which is all very well, but what am I paying the CTC fees for?



    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    When I had a car door opened on me Russell Jones and Walker said they would not deal with small claims, injury or not, as it is not worth their while to chase less than œ1000. Thats's common for all no win no fee lawyers, not just the ones the CTC has chosen. They did advise me to use the samll claims service if they came to the conclusion that my injury was too slight. My claim was deemed to be just worth RJW's attention and I got œ1000.

    As for the third party cover, that is nothing to do with Russell Jones and Walker. I hit a car of a neighbour causing a tiny dent and the CTC made a claim on their insurance policy with Norwich Union. All I did was give my name, address and the name of the CTC's insurance company to the car owner, fill in a form the CTC sent me and I never heard anything more about it until the car owner met me in the newsagents and told me he had settled the claim for œ300.

    Apart from the membership mix up I've had good service from the CTC.
  • CometGirlCometGirl Posts: 2,681
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by flattythehurdler</i>

    I'm in the CTC and love the idea of it and wouldn't cycle without the 3rd party insurance, but I would be pretty weeed off if i had been told by their contracted legal team to file in the small claims court myself.

    Dan
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    As I understand it, RJ&W only provide a telephone advice service at first, taking on cases if they need to? So what your CTC membership gets you is a free consultation with a specialist lawyer, i.e. takes the havoc out of finding someone reputable and then paying them fifty quid for half an hour of telling you something you already knew...
  • ChrisKHChrisKH Posts: 1,717
    Understood Simon - but the number on the documentation for CTC that mentioned the third party insurance was just the number that went through to the RJW advisors and it took some pushing on my part to get them (as they were the contact and that was the number given) to send out the third party insurance details.

    The facts on my accident are very clear cut. A car drove into me, despite me having right of way. No major PI. Bike is a write off. Some (self inflicted - SMIDSY) damage to his car. His insurers won't deal with me direct. Forces me to disclose CTC third party insurance details (I suspect) just to get them to respond/send a claim form. CTC/Prudential (who are the insurers I believe) should reject his claim outright as it's wholly the drivers fault. The truth is I don't know how the insurance system works and I am rather assuming I have to claim, or the driver has to claim, on the CTC third party to determine which side is going to pay what. It's hardly a knock for knock scenario like you get with car insurance - and if it is I'll go round and knock the driver out as quid pro quo.[}:)] [:D]



    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by J.Y.Kelly</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    Yawn.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can yawn, but it's not you that's had the bother. EVERYTHING this poor excuse for a cycling club does, is through contractors. I'd go even further by saying it's not even a club any more. The "club" element is the local DAs, who the CTC are doing their best to ignore.

    gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    My point was that, despite the successes we have recently seen, you joined the CTC in your words for the insurance and nothing else. Some people are active in keeping your right to do the thing you were getting the insurance for.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • marinatedmarinated Posts: 20
    I joined last October on a 12 month renewable subscription. My membership was cancelled by them in February "due to a computer failure" - so I've been consigned to CTC Room 101.

    I'm awaiting a new card and the backdated magazines - it's only been 4.5 months of waiting so far :( Actually, this thread has reminded me to chase it up (again).

    .
  • J.Y.KellyJ.Y.Kelly Posts: 405
    I rest my case!

    gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.
  • Uncle MortUncle Mort Posts: 1,124
    Don't be daft, J.Y. There's a lot worse than the CTC. I haven't been a member for a few years (as I live abroad), but the campaigning element was always what attracted me, and most other members I knew felt the same. The insurance and stuff is the icing on the cake, not the main reason for joining and participating. And if there are issues with memberships etc that can always be sorted with a couple of emails. Everyone uses subcontractors and you can't expect eveything to be perfect all the time. Membership hardly costs a fortune does it?

    But I suspect you know that anyway and you're just trying to stir things up. Yawn indeed [:(!]

    __________________
    <font size="1">In his mid forties and still unusual</font id="size1">
  • AsterixcpAsterixcp Posts: 6,251
    Well said.

    As regards use of the legal service, it never occurred to me to use it when it was merely a case of damage to the bike. Only when I was personally injured, perhaps permanently, did I feel the need to do so.

    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    Well, to be honest, I think members are entitled to a decent service, however marvellous the campaigning. I've told Kevin that I'm going to go down to the outsourced membership department to get my head around the system, but, as I've said previously, if anybody's got a particular problem then part of my job is to sort it out.

    I'm told that the membership service was a complete shambles when it was in house, so I'm not sure if outsourcing is the problem <i>per se</i>..
  • penugentpenugent Posts: 913
    Out of interest, is the CTC insurance any better that the insurance that most cyclists will already have on their household insurance - without any extra cost?

    This is a serious question. I have never bothered to seek any better cover than that provided by my home contents cover as that seems quite adequate as long as racing isn't involved.

    Pete
    (Not reckless, just fast)
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    Pete - just to be sure, I take it that you're referring to the bicycle insurance that is purchased seperately. Take a look at your home contents insurance. Is it comprehensive, does it cover the full cost of a new bike. If it does, and it's cheap, then you've probably done the right thing.
  • rgismergisme Posts: 1,598
    The advice to pursue a small claim yourself in the event of accident with no or trivial PI is not unreasonable. You need to understand that, in England and Wales at least, the 'small claims' limit where there is personal injury involved is œ1000, and for property damage only, it is œ5000. What a 'small claim' means is that if it goes to court your solicitor costs cannot be claimed from the other side even if you win. An insurer looking at this is going to say, where the case exceeds the small claims limit, 'if my insured has a case and wins I will get my costs in supporting his legal action back'. Where it is a small claim in contrast, the thinking will go 'if I support my insured's legal costs I will never get my money back, so this case could well cost me more to run than if it were over the limit. Moreover if I fund small claims I can expect to receive a lot of them, none of which I can recover my costs from the other side on.' I should imagine the industry has done the maths and concluded that to provide small claims cover is simply unviable - premiums would have to be priced at more than people would be willing to pay to have it.

    So don't expect to get more than advice to do it yourself, if your claim is a 'small' one.
  • J.Y.KellyJ.Y.Kelly Posts: 405
    I've joined British Cycling. Far more professional.

    gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by simoncp</i>

    Are they having problems again? A year or two back my membership lapsed for 4 months because they didn't take the automatic payment we agreed. <b>When it was sorted out they told me that they had hired a new company to deal with membership and the problems were a thing of the past.</b><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Isn't this problem typical of so many organisations these days? Instead of employing a clerk to deal with membership (not difficult you just need a computer and a database you could design yourself in an afternoon) they contract it out to disinterested people who probably try to run the whole thing in Calcutta. One presumes the CTC has a management. Perhaps it ought to earn its name and do some managing i.e. actually run the organisation and that, troublesome as it may be, includes admin.
  • Simon L2Simon L2 Posts: 2,908
    actually it's Twickenham.

    There's a whole wealth of history here, much of it unrepeatable (following a settlement with Associa, the previous bunch), but we are where we are. If Ion aren't performing then they need to be straightened out. Like I said - the more details I have the better.
  • ChrisKHChrisKH Posts: 1,717
    I think everyone's points here are valid to a degree but seem to be missing the point I am making ( very badly obviously).

    I joined CTC partly for the campaiging aspect and partly for the legal helpline and third party insurance.

    Uncle Mort, the fact is that the CTC now market the membership because of the legal helpline, RJW links <i>and</i> the third party insurance so it's not unreasonable to expect a certain level of service in relation thereto.

    rgisme - absolutely; I understand the small claims position (albeit not in as much detail as you) and I have no desire for RJW or the CTC to lose out in any way or proivde a loss making service. However I would have thought small claims should be a last resort in the absence of insurance cover (which I thought I had, albeit third party) not first.

    Compare their position with the insurers of a motor vehicle (or a third party provider as they used to have before the days of the internet, e.g. Swinton or any local insurance brokers) which has legal cover and third party insurance. If you're involved in an accident, you will ring your broker (i.e. CTC) and they will direct you to the insurance company regardless of who is to blame for the accident. You complete a claim form, regardless of who is responsible for the accident and the insurance companies sort it out. If there are any legal wranglings re: settlement, the legal cover premium deals with that.

    Why oh why is this scenario any different? Oh it's because I'm a cyclist. Right.

    Now I can understand the need to keep CTC costs low but I have to say I would pay a premium for a service that is comparable to that provided if you were an insured driver. IMO the CTC is trying to maintain the status quo with its historical members but cycling (increase in popularity and use as mode of transport) and the world around it has moved on. If they are going to offer insurance, legal cover, on-line bike shop, etc. it should be on a commercial basis and quite separate from that part of the club that is essentially non-profit making. I think they're trying to find a half-way house and it doesn't work. There really is an expectation gap between what I thought I had from membership and what is actually available.



    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
    Baby elephants are so last year, darling.
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by J.Y.Kelly</i>

    I've joined British Cycling. Far more professional.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Ha ha ha ha ha. Yeah, right...

    This is the same organisation that sent my membership card after 4 months, addressed everything to 'my father' because I was apparently 10 years old according to their records, and couldn't spell my name at all (despite numerous attempts to correct them)?



    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • rgismergisme Posts: 1,598
    ChrisKH - yes, I understand your point about your expectation gap, but I don't think the analogy with motor insurance holds good. You are comparing three different types of insurance with vastly different levels of premium - legal expenses, third party and fully comp. I don't think it's to do with discrimination against cyclists. Third party motor insurance doesn't, by definition, by itself, either pay for your own losses or provide any legal costs cover to recover your own loss, no matter who you buy it from. Fully comp cover covers you for your own losses but to get cover for your loss from your own policy results in a claim affecting NCB, no matter who was to blame - and your insurers will not necessarily pursue the third party for you, if they think it is not economically worth their while. They act in their interests and not in yours.

    Legal expenses cover may be added on to either of these types of cover for an additional optional sum, or might be offered 'inclusive', but it is still a separate provision subject to conditions, and I doubt you would find you could invoke it to cover the cost of representation at a small claims hearing. You might, however, get some assistance with pursuing an undisputed claim at the level of correspondence - as my step-daughter did in pursuing a low value claim where liability was accepted 50/50, for 50% of her damages. Even then we ended up corresponding directly with the other side ourselves. And this cover came as an add on to a very expensive motor policy, costing, as an extra to that policy, nearly as much as the CTC charges annually for everything that membership offers.

    Yes, perhaps a 'premium' level of insurance could be offered for a premium price, similar to motor insurance - covering risks of legal costs, third party damage to others, and the loss through accident regardless of blame, fire and theft of your own vehicle - instead of a mish-mash of different covers through different insurers for different risks (eg legal expenses and third party through cycle organisation membership and theft through household or special cycle insurance, with nothing equivalent to 'fully' comp in the event that you write off your own bike). But the demand would have to be high enough for the premiums to cover claims and provide the insurer with a profit, and do you really think it would be? And even then the legal expenses cover will, almost certainly, still not cover small claims proceedings! Although perhaps it could cover a bit more advice and assistance than 'do it yourself'.
  • pgscppgscp Posts: 1,102
    I have been a member for 12 years but still do not get up to date membership cards, luckily bike shops seem to belive me and I get the 10% discount without the card.
  • mjonesmjones Posts: 1,915
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by J.Y.Kelly</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Tourist Tony</i>

    Yawn.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You can yawn, but it's not you that's had the bother. EVERYTHING this poor excuse for a cycling club does, is through contractors. I'd go even further by saying it's not even a club any more. The "club" element is the local DAs, who the CTC are doing their best to ignore.

    gnu dung is spelt the same backwards.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Good grief! This very week the CTC has achieved a huge campaigning success in defending our right to the use the road, yet all you can do is whinge about its administration! I know where I'd prefer it focused its efforts. [:(!]
  • OldkneesOldknees Posts: 214
    And for little more than a magazine subscription (to a great magazine) you get third party insurance and a voice for cycling. I think Cycling Plus and the CTC should combine.

    slow is good too
    slow is good too
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