Girl knocked over by police car in Devon!!

The Endorser · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

Part of the problem is that the average Mr/Ms Plod shares much the same attitudes as Mr D1ckhead Mondeo man.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not quite sure what you base this on. None of my staff have that attitude.

If you're ever up this way i'll arrange a ride along on a weekend evening for you and we can see what your atitude is after a 12 hour nightshift being verbally abused, assaulted and spat at by members of the public, each of which doubtless regards themselves as righteous citizens. It's a complex job quite like no other, with perhaps an even more complex social role and a throwaway comment like that is meaningless without the experience upon which to base it.

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

stelvio · June 2007

Dear Endorser

1. "Only 354 of the 90,000 police officers caught on camera speeding or jumping red lights last year were fined or given points, it can be revealed. "
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
this rather suggests a certain lack of concern about speeding amongst some fellow officers don't you think ?

"As an ex cop, ...traffic cops are in their jobs because they, like the rest of us, like going fast... and need very little excuse to do so. The authorities say that speeding itself is dangerous, rather than the misuse of speed, so what's their excuse?
Clive Latham: http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/westmidl ... shes.shtml

2. Like most regular cyclists I know, I have direct personal experience of the difficulty in getting police to take any interest whatsoever in pursuing motorists who assault and injure cyclists, or tackling road safety issues.

3. Lots of people have difficult jobs; anyone who works in the NHS will probably have similar experiences in being threatened and abused by the public, for example.

Walking to school this morning, a police car was parked blocking the pavement; it's trivial, it's a minor abuse; but it also symptomatic.
You can hide your head in the sand if you like, but please, do not patronise me.

Charlotte_Newbie · June 2007

Well said Stelvio!!.

nice to see another person who is not afraid to stand up to the police, frequent irresponsible behavior[:(!].

Cretin · June 2007

Stelvio, you are aware that a police vehicle has an exemption from speed limits, and that callouts do not require the use of sirens or flashing lights?

The article doesn't actually say how many of those incidents involved vehicles on a call, or on routine patrol.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Daily Mail article

Dianne Ferreira, spokeswoman for road safety charity BRAKE, said: "Police officers should not be speeding in the first place.

"They enforce the law so should be setting an example and they should have to face the force of the law like everybody else when they break the rules." <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What a fantastic quote. It seems that the spokeswoman for a road safety charity isn't actually aware of the law on which she comments.

rothbook · June 2007

The chap killed by a speeding police car would have been comforted by the fact that the officers were attending a car illegally parked.

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Cretin

Stelvio, you are aware that a police vehicle has an exemption from speed limits, and that callouts do not require the use of sirens or flashing lights?

The article doesn't actually say how many of those incidents involved vehicles on a call, or on routine patrol.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Daily Mail article

Dianne Ferreira, spokeswoman for road safety charity BRAKE, said: "Police officers should not be speeding in the first place.

"They enforce the law so should be setting an example and they should have to face the force of the law like everybody else when they break the rules." <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

What a fantastic quote. It seems that the spokeswoman for a road safety charity isn't actually aware of the law on which she comments.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sorry Cretin - but you are wrong. Police vehicles do not have an exemption from speed limits. They are bound by exactly the same speed limits as everyone. However, it is a defence for officers who break speed limits that they were on an emergency call.

Exactly the same applies to ambulances and fire engines. Indeed, as some of you may recall, there were a number of ambulance drivers carrying blood/donor organs who were prosecuted last year, despite the fact they were on 'emergency' calls.

Given what you're spouting, perhaps your username is apt...

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

paulwood · June 2007

Sorry Regulator but you are wrong. vehicles used for police ambulance and fire brigade purposes do have an exemption from speed limits. It is a legal exemption, not a defence. Nothing in the law about an emergency call either.

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator
Sorry Cretin - but you are wrong. Police vehicles do not have an exemption from speed limits. They are bound by exactly the same speed limits as everyone. However, it is a defence for officers who break speed limits that they were on an emergency call.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Section 87 of the road traffic regulations act 1984.

And please don't resort to insults, it belies your argument.

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by paulwood

Sorry Regulator but you are wrong. vehicles used for police ambulance and fire brigade purposes do have an exemption from speed limits. It is a legal exemption, not a defence. Nothing in the law about an emergency call either.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My apologies - its a qualified exemption, rather than a defence. However, the exemption contains a exigency requirement - "...if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion..." - therefore it is not a blanket exemption.

The law requires observance of the speed limit, unless it would hinder the use of the vehicle in a particular situation (i.e. an emergency). Hence police officers / fire officers / ambulance drivers can be (and have been*) prosecuted for speeding - they have to be able to justify breaking the speed limit and being late for their tea break isn't good reason enough.

*Example

Ambulance driver prosecuted for speeding

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

The Endorser · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

Dear Endorser

1. "Only 354 of the 90,000 police officers caught on camera speeding or jumping red lights last year were fined or given points, it can be revealed. "
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/a ... ge_id=1770
this rather suggests a certain lack of concern about speeding amongst some fellow officers don't you think ?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No. All camera pinging is investigated, either by senior officers in force, or by the prosecuting department that runs the cameras, dependent on local policy and the apparent severity of the trnsgression. Provided the incident is justifiable in the course of their duty (IE, where not to have been doing that speed would unreasonably impede the execution of such duty), and that does NOT automatically mean 'responding to an incident', then section 87 of the Road Traffic Act exempts that officer from prosecution. Period.

The potential investigation may include checking incident logs, control room tapes, an officers own PNB (I always note activations and the reason fo doing so as soon after the event as poss, and it saves a lot of time and bother when you get audited). Only where there is no such valid reason will a prosecution proceed, and quite rightly so. In my 14 yars shovelling other peoples poop i've only heard of 1 bobby getting stuck on in this ay, nd that' in a (relatively small force) of 1600 officers. Hell, when I used to drive the IRVs I could ping off 10 or a dozen easy on a busy shift, half of those in the same location. Section 87 is piece of law that applies to police officers only and most of the public, who are unaware of its existence think it's bobbies just off on high speed jollies. Uh uh.

I went to RPU as I wanted to go to FSU (firearms) but had to do the driving course and gain 6 months experience before I could apply. At the time I had a BMW 750 (V12, 330 BHP) and my (now ex) wife had a Porsche 911 Carrera 2, so I can't see that I did it beacause I was going to get all excited over driving a Volvo or Omega all day.

In the end my RPU career came to a devastating halt when a woman in a Granda turned left across me to access her drivway whilst I was out riding one day, smashing my kneecap and giving me some very long lasting soft tissue injuries. As a result I can no longer drive for long periods of time, day after day, and have had to take a sergeants post on the community team, which isn't very scinitllating for someone in line for a firearms instuctor post. Ironic that the career of a short tenure traffic officer is ruined by one of the very people hat officer would have liked o get off the roads for good.

As for your other points...I can't be bothered!

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

The Endorser · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Regulator
Police vehicles do not have an exemption from speed limits. They are bound by exactly the same speed limits as everyone. However, it is a defence for officers who break speed limits that they were on an emergency call.

Exactly the same applies to ambulances and fire engines. Indeed, as some of you may recall, there were a number of ambulance drivers carrying blood/donor organs who were prosecuted last year, despite the fact they were on 'emergency' calls,

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No, you are the one who is wrong.

Secion 87 of the Road traffic Act permits a police officer, or authorised police employees (such as a driving instructors) to ignore speed limits, no entry signs, red traffic lights, or any other prevailing road regulation, where to obey them would unreasonably hinder the execution of such duty. You do not have to be going to an 'incident' for this legislation to apply.

Other emergency servies are not exempt in this way. However, by local agreement, their drivers are not routinely prosecuted where they are on a job authorised by their control.

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

Regulator · June 2007

Sorry Endorser - but Section 87 of the Road Traffic Regulation Act applies to the police, the fire brigade and the ambulance service. It only applies to speed limits, as well, and there is an exigency requirement - it is a qualified exemption, not a blanket exemption.

Section 87. Exemption of fire brigade, ambulance and police vehicles from speed limits.

No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire brigade, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.
(Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984)
___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

The Endorser · June 2007

That's it! Not bad, considering I hadn't read it for a decade and a half! (although i've got the 2007 Blackstones Road Policing reference within 4 feet of this computer, so i've got no excuse for being a lazy git!)

Taking the moral high ground since 1969

Regulator · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by The Endorser

That's it! Not bad, considering I hadn't read it for a decade and a half! (although i've got the 2007 Blackstones Road Policing reference within 4 feet of this computer, so i've got no excuse for being a lazy git!)

Taking the moral high ground since 1969
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And you will agree that Section 87 relates to the ambulance service and the fire service, as well as the police? And that it applies only to speed limits - not red lights, no entry signs or other road regulations? [}:)]

___________________________
Bugger elephants - capabari are cuter!

Fab Foodie · June 2007

So, anybody know what happened to the little-girl yet?

The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
Fab's TCR1

Archcp · June 2007

Well, since Charlotte was so keen to leap in and assume guilt on the part of the police, I'll air an assumption/suggestion...

"Emergency services were called to an unclassified road in Tiverton on Saturday morning, near Stoodleigh Cross and Loxbeare. "

Now, I don't know the area at all, so I may be wrong, but this sounds to me like a country lane. Speed limit probably 60? The girl was believed to have been playing in her driveway just before. It's quite possible that the driveway was lined with a hedge or fence which blocked the view of, and from the road. Also, that the lane is quite narrow. If the girl ran out of the bottom of the drive (chasing a ball, or just being chased in a game or something), she may have appeared in the road very sudddenly. Even if the car was doing 'only' 40, any collision would be catastrophic.

As for the accusation of being hypocrites - well, if the policeman involved is currently sitting in the station canteen saying "well, it doesn't matter, I'm a policeman" having been stopping all and sundry for speeding for years then yes, they are a hypocrite. On the other hand it may be that the driver is in fact distraught over the whole thing, and will be affected for life, and feeling guilt over a situation he could do little to avoid - unless he drove everywhere at 10 or 20mph.

I know, all this is conjecture. But only as much conjecture as the idea that the girl was hit by a speeding careless hyocritical police driver, based on the evidence of that report alone.

Let's hope the girl recovers, and that it does turn out to have been a case where all sensible precautions had been taken. If it turns out that the police cr was being driven in a dangerous manner, then let's hope the driver is suitably punished.

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.

Fab Foodie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Arch

Well, since Charlotte was so keen to leap in and assume guilt on the part of the police, I'll air an assumption/suggestion...

"Emergency services were called to an unclassified road in Tiverton on Saturday morning, near Stoodleigh Cross and Loxbeare. "

Now, I don't know the area at all, so I may be wrong, but this sounds to me like a country lane. Speed limit probably 60? The girl was believed to have been playing in her driveway just before. It's quite possible that the driveway was lined with a hedge or fence which blocked the view of, and from the road. Also, that the lane is quite narrow. If the girl ran out of the bottom of the drive (chasing a ball, or just being chased in a game or something), she may have appeared in the road very sudddenly. Even if the car was doing 'only' 40, any collision would be catastrophic.

As for the accusation of being hypocrites - well, if the policeman involved is currently sitting in the station canteen saying "well, it doesn't matter, I'm a policeman" having been stopping all and sundry for speeding for years then yes, they are a hypocrite. On the other hand it may be that the driver is in fact distraught over the whole thing, and will be affected for life, and feeling guilt over a situation he could do little to avoid - unless he drove everywhere at 10 or 20mph.

I know, all this is conjecture. But only as much conjecture as the idea that the girl was hit by a speeding careless hyocritical police driver, based on the evidence of that report alone.

Let's hope the girl recovers, and that it does turn out to have been a case where all sensible precautions had been taken. If it turns out that the police cr was being driven in a dangerous manner, then let's hope the driver is suitably punished.

If I had a baby elephant, it could help me clean the car. If I had a car.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Arch, as ever one of this forum's voices of reason. Well put.

The pessimists of this world are rarely disappointed....
Fab's TCR1

stelvio · June 2007

just in case anybody has missed it, another policeman demonstarting his responsible attitudes to road safety
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6733969.stm

stelvio · June 2007

Charlotte_Newbie · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

just in case anybody has missed it, another policeman demonstarting his responsible attitudes to road safety
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6733969.stm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is absolutely sickening! [V]

He should be dismissed & banned from driving for life.

Cretin · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

and a few more of our finest, not at their best however
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2203911.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1619800.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/leic ... 613465.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfo ... 285289.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derb ... 267335.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/240978.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2068036.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/676094.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bristol/6618255.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2296977.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/1607779.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/derb ... 212796.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/4919928.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/camb ... 639019.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/504939.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/4177411.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manc ... 194057.stm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Its worth mentioning that your average Panda car driver isn't anywhere near as professionally trained as a Traffic officer. They do not possess anywhere near the same level of skill.

You also have to consider that for every one of the tragic stories above (where people have been injured or killed), there may be another 10000 stories where a police car has raced to the scene of a crime and saved somebody from serious injury/death. You can't expect police officers to drive around and never break the speed limit when responding to an emergency call.

mr_hippo · June 2007

Congratulations, Stelvio, on starting a new hobby - searching internet news databases. Can't you go further back than 1998? Which archive are you going to search next? I suggest the Daily Mail and the Express.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June

andy_wrx · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlotte_Newbie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

just in case anybody has missed it, another policeman demonstarting his responsible attitudes to road safety
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6733969.stm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is absolutely sickening! [V]

He should be dismissed & banned from driving for life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah, yeah. There's already another thread about it.

I agree with Mr Hippo.

why is it sunny all week yet rains at weekends ?

Frostblade · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Charlotte_Newbie

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by stelvio

just in case anybody has missed it, another policeman demonstarting his responsible attitudes to road safety
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/6733969.stm
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is absolutely sickening! [V]

He should be dismissed & banned from driving for life.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you'll find the former is exactly what happens to officers convicted of drink drive, almost without exemption.

www.bikesquad.org

Tourist Tony · June 2007

It's called "dealing with your own dirty laundry". Some law enforcement agencies are good and open about this, some aren't, some have got a lot better since the days of the old Police canteen culture.
So look at it in a different way, taking the Humber d/d as a specific example:
Tit goes drink driving. Tit gets stopped. Tit tries to use "canteen culture" to avaoid penalty. Tit gets hung out to dry. That is exactly how it should be.
I don't see the report as "ACAB", I see it as "Good riddance to bad rubbish". They found him out and they did him over.
Result.

If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or Dick

Ashtrayhead · June 2007

'Don't Walk, Don't Smoke, Don't Drink', Don't Think'

Girl knocked over by police car in Devon!!

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