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Number plate system not working

JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
edited June 2007 in Campaign
Lead item on Radio 5 Live this morning. Apparently there are too many cloned plates out there and drivers are guilty until they prove themselves innocent.

Lets just remind ourselves which self-interested speed freak recommended cloning plates. Ah yes. ____ _______. I wonder what the hypocrite will come up with about this.

--
<font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
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  • AsterixcpAsterixcp Posts: 6,251
    The dreg to whom I think you refer will be quite happy since his advice is clearly an effective ploy which other dregs are using.



    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
    Pour vivre heureux, vivons le v‚lo..
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Actually for once the advice from Safe<i></i>Speed was correct, legitimate and valid!
    (until the remove the identifying features which would help in your case changes it from advice to a scam)
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Cloned number plate

    Number plate cloning is becoming much more common. It is quite possible that someone will have seen your car and copied the number plate, so if your car was not in the area where the offence was committed, do not be afraid to write and tell them so. Most cameras only photograph the rear of the vehicle, so obvious identifying features may be evidence that it really was your car. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That was probably actually acceptable advice of the driver truly was a victim.

    However using masking tape to change the numbers and claiming local kids did it as a joke, and altering the numbers and then claiming you are dyslexic are both illegal suggestions by this group.



    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • dondaredondare Posts: 2,113
    False plates are so obvious and PS so obscure that I dobt if he's really to blame for giving people the idea.
    What is his opinion on cameras that can get round this by photographing the drver? Is he advocating masks?

    Baby elephants? Pah!!
    This post contains traces of nuts.
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    I wasn't suggesting that he had.........................

    It was the fact that he claimsto be a road safety organisation, but suggested ways to do it and excuses to avoid the law when caught.

    The position is simple - False plates are an unjustifiable criminal activity used by lawbreakers who blatantly intend to flout the law. Anyone apologising for this or supporting this is condoning criminal activity and certainly NOT road safety

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    Nope. He's not advising people to alter their plates deliberately, all he's doing is advising people to be aware of the possibility that someone else may have cloned them to use on a similar car. If someone has cloned my plates and then sped through a speed camera, then it's only right that I shouldn't pay the fine, and english law operates on a 'innocent until proven guilty' system, so therefore if I get a speeding ticket, it should be up to the authorities to prove that it was ME speeding, not just plates the same as mine speeding. As unfortunately, as PS points out, plates identical to mine speeding and ME speeding are not necessarily the same thing.
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by dondare</i>

    False plates are so obvious and PS so obscure that I dobt if he's really to blame for giving people the idea.
    What is his opinion on cameras that can get round this by photographing the drver? Is he advocating masks?

    Baby elephants? Pah!!
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Funny you should ask that. One of the nutters over on his minority site was joking about driving with a helmet on yesterday.

    PS encouraging this behaviour isn't the issue with him and SafeSpeeding. The issue is that he pretends that the SS has 'only ever been about road safety'. Is clearly wasn't in the beginning and isn't now. Masking his real agenda under the sign of 'road safety' is despicable.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Nope. He's not advising people to alter their plates deliberately, all he's doing is advising people to be aware of the possibility that someone else may have cloned them to use on a similar car. If someone has cloned my plates and then sped through a speed camera, then it's only right that I shouldn't pay the fine, and english law operates on a 'innocent until proven guilty' system, so therefore if I get a speeding ticket, it should be up to the authorities to prove that it was ME speeding, not just plates the same as mine speeding. As unfortunately, as PS points out, plates identical to mine speeding and ME speeding are not necessarily the same thing.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You don't know your leader well enough Bonjy. He used to list ways of obscuring number plates. In the course of his 'research' he claims. But he also invited further ideas for evasion scams, and offered anonymity for the suggestions.

    he's taken the embarrassing pages off his site now. Though he admits their presence and content, he has never admitted his mistakes. Quite the opposite in fact -when questioned he excitedly defends them. Makes you wonder why he took them down really.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    Guess who?

    <start quote>
    Ideas for defeating speed measuring equipment.


    "You could have made up a number plate from a similar make and colour car
    to yours seen driving around. This is called number plate cloning and is
    becoming quite common. It would be hard to justify your incorrect cloned
    plate if stopped by Police. You might fare a little better if your number
    plate incorporates a simple mistake such as two numbers changed round. For
    example A 123 ACB instead of A 123 ABC. If stopped you could simply claim
    that it must be an error."


    "Don't be too keen to wash the winter filth off your car! Don't be too
    keen to remove that bike rack from the back. If your number plate falls
    off or gets broken, don't be in too much of a hurry to get it replaced. We
    hear the motorcycle chain lubricant in a spray can will make a few
    usefully unreadable streaks or blobs. Or do a little mudslinging; mud
    stuck on the numberplate could well obscure enough of the numbers and
    letters. In some areas kids think it is funny to attach black tape to a
    number plate to make the numbers and letters different; this is a trend
    well worth encouraging."
    <end quote>


    Now that does rather look like 'encouraging the perversion of justice'.


    He then went on to say:

    "We should make every effort to appear calm, reasonable, responsible,
    honest and accurate."


    And that sounds very much like 'Please try to hide the truth about our
    real motives'.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    Nope. He's not advising people to alter their plates deliberately, all he's doing is advising people to be aware of the possibility that someone else may have cloned them to use on a similar car. If someone has cloned my plates and then sped through a speed camera, then it's only right that I shouldn't pay the fine, and english law operates on a 'innocent until proven guilty' system, so therefore if I get a speeding ticket, it should be up to the authorities to prove that it was ME speeding, not just plates the same as mine speeding. As unfortunately, as PS points out, plates identical to mine speeding and ME speeding are not necessarily the same thing.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You don't know your leader well enough Bonjy. He used to list ways of obscuring number plates. In the course of his 'research' he claims. But he also invited further ideas for evasion scams, and offered anonymity for the suggestions.

    he's taken the embarrassing pages off his site now. Though he admits their presence and content, he has never admitted his mistakes. Quite the opposite in fact -when questioned he excitedly defends them. Makes you wonder why he took them down really.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    ah, the old "they used to be there but I can't find them now" get-out. That old one. I don't suppose you'd have any, <i>proof</i>, of these 'pages-that-used-to-exist-but-don't-now' EVER having existed? Nah, didn't think so.
  • rothbookrothbook Posts: 943
    Interesting. Small Pith used to have a different attitude to pertsonal abuse, it seems:

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> ____ _______ View profile
    More options 28 Sep 2002, 02:32

    Newsgroups: uk.rec.driving, uk.transport, uk.legal, uk.rec.motorcycles
    From: ____ _______ <psm...@XYZsafespeed.org.uk>
    Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2002 02:32:24 +0100
    Local: Sat 28 Sep 2002 02:32
    Subject: Project Laser
    Reply to author | Forward | Print | Individual message | Show original | Report this message | Find messages by this author
    Look what the home office and that Brunstrom **** are up to here: <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">


    This charmer calls a police officer a vile, woman-hating name, then bans dissenters from his forum for a mild overstatement.

    Mmmmm.



    Oh, here's the link to Sm1th's perversion of justice posts:

    http://www.max-boost.co.uk/max-boost/Sa ... asures.htm
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    There you go Bonjy. Now what do you have to say for yourself?

    Funny that you're asking for proof, but Smithy himself now admits their existence. He used to deny it, until the proof was posted for all to see, and then he suddenly remembered that he wrote them. Have a look around the SS site and you'll find plenty of discussion of them.

    And while you're there, have a look at his comments getting excited about paying someone to say they were driving your car -funnily enough you didn't mention that in any of this week's PRs or press comments did you Pauly?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    My apologies for the length of this post:

    I was going to do a "What would your response be if we were to provide the proof", but can't be bothered. The pages are on a number of sites, despite an attempt to remove them. They are still retained, and available.

    Of course we must be fair and recognise the claim that it wasn't the author who published these pages, and someone sneaked on to his website and published them when he wasn't looking!



    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">ah, the old "they used to be there but I can't find them now" get-out. That old one. I don't suppose you'd have any, proof, of these 'pages-that-used-to-exist-but-don't-now' EVER having existed? Nah, didn't think so.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Howzabout:

    Final Version - no updates

    Ideas for people prosecuted for speed camera offences to avoid points on their licences


    We do not recommend or condone law breaking. We are not lawyers and the content on this page are simply ideas not recommendations. Our interest in this instance is to collect ideas for research purposes. If you try to use this information you do so entirely at your own risk.


    Notice

    Due to policy and priority changes this page and some others will be deleted at the end of the year.

    We are operating a serious campaign to improve road safety, and the presence of this information is sometimes used against us in discussions. We still believe that the present speed camera based road safety policy should be attacked and undermined at every level, but we can achieve more by concentrating our efforts on the foundations of policy and policy itself.

    There are other web sites which will continue to provide the sorts of information on this page, and we will ensure that links are available.

    Company gets the points

    If a limited company owns the car and can't or won't say who was driving at the time of the offence, the company secretary (official post) gets the points and fine. A lot of limited companies now have non-driving secretaries! Also there is no requirement for a company secretary to be a UK resident. A limited company can be bought for circa œ100 and run for about the same amount each year if it doesn't actually trade.

    Does anyone want to set up a business with an overseas company secretary to receive points?
    Overseas driver

    If the person who was driving at the time of the offence was a visitor from overseas then this would be a very good thing. Feel free to give the driver's name and address on the form. If the driver is outside the UK but within the EEC there's an outside chance that they might hear about the offence. If the driver was from a third world country, then you can be pretty sure that that will be an end to the matter.
    Double denial

    If there were two of you in the car and you reply to the NIP that the other person was driving, they will receive a summons or a fixed penalty notice. If they in turn plead not guilty and say that you were driving, it will be your word against theirs and NEITHER of you can be found guilty since a reasonable doubt of the guilt of EITHER of you must exist.
    Double guilty Police recommended

    Again if there were two of you in the car and you don't recall who was driving. A police officer recommended to us that you fill in the NIP with BOTH names saying that you can't identify the driver, but you are in effect, both guilty. The system cannot prosecute two people for the same offence and this should result in the case being dropped more quickly and with less hassle than in Double denial. You can expect a visit from the local police to talk you into nominating a driver (yes really!), but stick to your guns and all will be well.
    Cloned number plate

    Number plate cloning is becoming much more common. It is quite possible that someone will have seen your car and copied the number plate, so if your car was not in the area where the offence was committed, do not be afraid to write and tell them so. Most cameras only photograph the rear of the vehicle, so obvious identifying features may be evidence that it really was your car.
    Underage owner

    Register the vehicle in the name of a two year old child. We think this is perfectly legal, and they will not prosecute the two year old. Your can remain the owner, but be sure to inform the insurance company.
    thanks to "general public" for this idea
    Owner, what owner?

    A lot of traders buy cars with 12 months tax (ex fleet cars are usually out of tax just before the end of the lease so get a new tax disc and are then moved on) run it and then trade it on before the tax runs out. The police can't follow the paper chase (usually with a few false names) so give up. Camera fines and parking tickets are all a thing of the past for these people. I see this being the way a lot of people will go if camera numbers grow. Anyway buying and selling trade is the cheapest way to run a car.
    Dead driver

    I heard suggested that on receiving the notice of intended prosecution you could pick a recently deceased person mentioned in the local paper and name them as the driver at the time.
    Friend takes the points

    If you have a friend with a clean licence, they might agree to admit that they were driving and allow you to pay their fixed penalty notice and any (small!) motor insurance increases. This works even better if you have a relative who no longer drives. If you have a friend who never intends to drive, make sure they get a provisional licence to receive points for you. At the time of writing there are no insurance or other checks when a fixed penalty notice is paid.
    Maximum delay

    Delays to the court process are a good thing and encourage the failure of the case. (for example, if a police witness leaves the force the case will be dropped.) I have recently heard that points "count" from the time of the offence for 3 years. If the court case takes a year, then the points won't be applied for a year and will only be valid for 2 years. If you have a holiday booked for the time of a hearing you can request that the hearing be rescheduled. There may be many many other grounds for delay.
    Points selling and brokerage

    According to a recent Sunday Times article there's a lively trade in selling points. Students are said to have taken points for fees of œ50. Read the article here. The article also describes a student who acts as a points broker and makes a profit from the process. An Internet search on "licence points broker" finds nothing, so that exact phrase would be very good for anyone setting up or advertising such a scheme. ACPO warns that that selling points might attract a charge of "attempting to pervert the course of justice", but of course evidence to support such a charge should be extremely hard to come by.
    Planned refusal

    Suppose you've been gatsoed at 105mph on the motorway. According to Magistrates Association guidelines you face a ban for major speeding. If you refuse to identify the driver it seems that you only face 3 points and a fine. So if the speeding offence is "serious" you might sensibly plan to refuse to identify the driver. We are presently trying to verify the exact legal position on this.
    Can't identify driver

    If you genuinely cannot identify the driver (for example because the driving on the journey in question was shared) then say you cannot identify the driver. Failing to identify the driver is, in itself, an offence, but as an individual you cannot be found guilty if you genuinely do not know who the driver was. Companies are apparently not entitled to use this defence. I heard of a case where someone was selling a motorbike. A prospective purchaser turned up, left the full payment as a security deposit and took the bike for a test drive. During the test drive he was photographed by a speed camera. He didn't buy the bike. When the NIP arrived the owner was unable to identify the driver.
    new Question the calibration

    My brother was flashed almost a year ago in a welsh town. He was "caught" doing 40 in a 30 zone. After he received notification he queried the accuracy of the camera. He wrote back asking for proof that the camera was recently calibrated. The police wrote back and said that the cameras are checked daily for accuracy (what a load of censored ).... My brother then wrote back asking for the calibration reports, stating that if the cameras are indeed calibrated daily then there would be records of the fact. He ask for these reports so he send them to his solicitor.

    That was the last my brother has heard about the matter.
    Thanks to Darren
    Keep to the speed limit in the first place

    Obvious of course, but two people have made the suggestion, so here it is.
    Thanks to KL and Conrad Meehan.
    Ideas please

    If you have an idea for points avoidance please send it to us by email. Tell us if you would like to be credited with the idea or not. If you desire anonymity, please tell us so and we will delete all copies of the email immediately. click here[/quote]

    If anyone would care to PM me I will send them a copy of the webpage....

    Edited - The question is of course, why not exercise honesty, integrity and good practice by maintaining a record of deleted and alterd web pages that could be provided on request...... Unless of course you are hiding something?

    Is that sufficient proof?

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Or if TB still needs more proof - just link to any of the websites that are still showing the fabled [url=#
    avoid the points!
    Safe Speed home. Understanding. Communicating. Navigating. Issues. News. Helping. About Safe Speed. Page deleted ...
    noname.uk/avoid.html]pages[/url]

    More proof required?



    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • JadedJaded Posts: 6,663
    Interesting that only The Boss has jumped on this thread. You can never find a proper SS apologist when you want one!

    --
    <font size="1">[Warning] This post may contain a baby elephant or traces of one</font id="size1">
  • BentMikeyBentMikey Posts: 4,895
    I think the number plate system is working OK, within its limits. What's not working is enforcement, just as with speeding, mobile phones, red light jumping and all the other serious road issues. More traffic police need to be out there enforcing this stuff, and then people will stop being tempted to try it on.

    <font size="1">My bikes
    My skates</font id="size1">

    If I had a baby elephant, I'd teach it to skate.
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    It's old!

    Like everything else, install a system, and the criminal element will find a way to thwart it. Think of "Credit Card verification numbers" and "Chip and Pin" as another example.

    This is another case where swingeing punitive levels of fine could be ring fenced for a Traffic Police Force.

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • mr_hippomr_hippo Posts: 1,051
    I have never heard of the SafeSpeed site before but I must admit I found it amusing. Take the letter from the magistrate - Madge E Strate!Do numpties really believe that these methods work? We have something similar in Thailand. The Thai government last October brought out new visa rules to stop long term 'tourists' and undesirables. There were, and still are pages and pages of how to circumvent the system and you can't.
    As Cunobelin says no system is foolproof. The cloning of number plates - authorised suppliers only, production of log book requires, supplier to check with Swansea that registration number and VIN are the same. Find a way to incorporate into number plates an invisible bar-code that can be read by speed cameras and other police equipment. Write on the tax disc not only the registration but also the VIN.

    http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

    Ex-XXL weigh-in 9/10 June: Update published: Monday 11 June
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    If Bonj is still, as an SS member, disbelieving, I have the pages saved myself.
    Here, Bonjy, Bonjy! Come and tell us how it's all a conspiracy!

    Tell me Bonj, have you ever been to East Grinstead?

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=3 ... =3244&v=5K
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    Bonj

    read this

    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/Web/p ... enDocument

    And this

    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/Web/p ... enDocument

    and this

    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/Web/p ... enDocument

    and this

    http://chapmancentral.demon.co.uk/Web/p ... e_in_three

    and then let us know what you think of Smith's campaign.


    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    Firstly, I would question the pedanticity of the speed camera lobby's insistence that they're not 'speed cameras' but 'safety cameras'.

    The term 'safety cameras' would imply that they tackle road safey in general and in all its forms, i.e. that they detect any possible lack of road safety.

    This is in fact not the case, because they are only sensitive to one thing - speed. They don't detect tailgating, pulling out without looking, etc.

    Speed is all they can detect, therefore they are correctly called 'speed cameras'.

    To claim that they are called 'road safety cameras' would imply that the only element relevant to road safety is going at or below the speed limit, which is what it would seem all the government are bothered about.

    Road safety is what's important, but it can't be quantified and measured for statistical purposes, so they have tried to munge 'adherance to speed limits' and 'road safety' together as synonymous, for statistical box-ticking purposes.
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    No-one is pretending that speed cameras are something that they aren't Bonj. Don't try to discredit them by making up that line, as it won't work.

    You are well aware that the government are concerned about all aspects of road safety. Which is more than can be said for some.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    Welcome back to "The Boss"

    Any comments on the provided proof I wonder?

    Let's not forget that speeding is simply one simple symptom of poor driving. I have posted elsewhere with the links, but lok at the Fleet Driver Risk Index for some of the background.

    Basically speeding drivers tend to be "risk takers" and aggressive, "Aggression is associated with accidents, speeding and more frequent overtaking".

    I agree that tackling speeding is not the only answer, but it is a simple effective, and cheap way way of identifying a diagnostic symptom - tackling one aspect of a generally agresssive and poor driving style is an excellent way of identifying drivers who are at a higher risk of accidents.



    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    No-one is pretending that speed cameras are something that they aren't Bonj. Don't try to discredit them by making up that line, as it won't work.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Oh so you admit they are speed cameras then? So why did you post a link to something claiming they're not speed cameras but 'road safety cameras'?
    I think it's your camp that's claiming they're something that they're not, not mine.

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    the government are concerned about all aspects of road safety.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Could have fooled me.
  • The BosscpThe Bosscp Posts: 647
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    Basically speeding drivers tend to be "risk takers" and aggressive, "Aggression is associated with accidents, speeding and more frequent overtaking".
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Aggressive drivers are often speeders, but it doesn't work the other way round - speeders aren't always aggressive.
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    No-one is pretending that speed cameras are something that they aren't Bonj. Don't try to discredit them by making up that line, as it won't work.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Oh so you admit they are speed cameras then? So why did you post a link to something claiming they're not speed cameras but 'road safety cameras'?
    I think it's your camp that's claiming they're something that they're not, not mine.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    See? Is that the best argument you can come up with? What they're called? What they are called in no way affects their purpose or effectiveness.

    Have you got a decent argument?
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>


    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Mister Paul</i>

    the government are concerned about all aspects of road safety.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Could have fooled me.

    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    It doesn't seem to be difficult.

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • Mister PaulMister Paul Posts: 719
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by The Boss</i>

    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>


    Basically speeding drivers tend to be "risk takers" and aggressive, "Aggression is associated with accidents, speeding and more frequent overtaking".
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    Aggressive drivers are often speeders, but it doesn't work the other way round - speeders aren't always aggressive.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Any comments on the proof Cunobelin provided which you claimed didn't exist? Or the links I posted which raise rather elegantly the fundamental flaws in your safespeeding argument?

    __________________________________________________________
    <font size="1">Road Safety Expert</font id="size1">
    __________________________________________________________
    <font>What we need is a new, national <b>White Bicycle Plan</b></font>
  • CunobelinCunobelin Posts: 11,792
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">ah, the old "they used to be there but I can't find them now" get-out. That old one. I don't suppose you'd have any, proof, of these 'pages-that-used-to-exist-but-don't-now' EVER having existed? Nah, didn't think so.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    The proof has been posted - Any comment, or do you simply not wish to acknowledge it?

    The fact is that speeding IS associated with risk taking behaviour, some reports suggest that drivers caught speeding are 50% more likely to have been involved in an injury accident than an "average" driver.(1)


    Other research has also shown that drivers stopped for speeding (or caught by camera) had double the incidence of recent crash involvement!(2)

    I must admit though that I fully agree with the Traffic Police idea!

    We do not however have to compromise the present efficiency of dealing with speeding,etc.
    However where we differ is that I don not do this on the basis that I am less likely to be caught speeding. In other words, enhance the present enforcement, inconvenient as it may be to the pro-speeding agenda which is more about avoiding detection, and lowering the chances of being caught.

    My solution.

    Whack up speeding fines to 3 or 4 hundred quid.
    Whack up fines for all those transgressing yellow boxes, jumping red lights, illegally using pavements, illegally parking etc to a similar amount.

    Use the automated systems that are so efficient and appropriate in these areas to enforce the law.

    Now ring fence this and use the money to finance a dedicated traffic police. The revenue from speed cameras alone would be enough to provide a force several times the size of some county forces.

    In 2003 - 2004 the income at œ60 per fine was 122.2 million (DfT figures.) at œ400 this would be something like œ800 million pounds. Hampshire Constabulary has a budget of œ265 million. Effectively we could therefore be looking at at a Traffic Police Force something like 3 times the size of Hampshire Constabulary.

    Now add a similar amount (conservative estimate I suspect) for the fines for the other offences and we could be looking at a dedicated Traffic Force some 6 times the size of the Hampshire Constabulary, and funded entirely by voluntary contributions!

    We maintain the present level of censure for those who cannot or will not drive within the law, and then comply with the SafeSpeed wish for a dedicated Traffic Police Force.

    A win for everybody except those breaking the law!


    (1)(Lynn, P. and Lockwood, C.R. 1998. The Accident Liability of Company Car Drivers. TRL Report 317. TRL: Crowthorne, Berkshire.
    Broughton, J., Baughan, C., Pearce, L., Smith, L., and Buckle, G. 2003. Work-related Road Accidents. TRL Report 582. TRL:
    Crowthorne, Berkshire.)

    (2)(Stradling, S., Campbell, M., Allan, I., Gorell, R., Hill, J., Winter, M. and Hope, S. 2003. The Speeding Driver: Who, how and why?
    Scottish Executive Social Research Development Department Research Programme Research Findings 170/2003.)

    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
    <b><i>He that buys land buys many stones.
    He that buys flesh buys many bones.
    He that buys eggs buys many shells,
    But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.</b></i>
    (Unattributed Trad.)
  • Tourist TonyTourist Tony Posts: 8,628
    A short answer to Bonj and the rest of the SS tro;;s: "Safety Cameras" as a set includes both cameras for detecting excess speed above the legal limit, and cameras used for other purposes such as detecting the idiots who ignore red traffic lights.
    Got that, Bonj? You can get back to your dianetics course now.

    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
    If I had a stalker, I would hug it and kiss it and call it George...or censored
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  • I couldn't help but notice that the safe speed site starts off with a disclaimer.
    Perhaps drug dealers could avoid prison sentences by putting 'not to be taken internally' on their products...
  • CretinCretin Posts: 266
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Cunobelin</i>
    My solution.

    Whack up speeding fines to 3 or 4 hundred quid.
    Whack up fines for all those transgressing yellow boxes, jumping red lights, illegally using pavements, illegally parking etc to a similar amount.

    Use the automated systems that are so efficient and appropriate in these areas to enforce the law.

    Now ring fence this and use the money to finance a dedicated traffic police. The revenue from speed cameras alone would be enough to provide a force several times the size of some county forces.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    I'd like nothing more than to see more traffic officers on patrol, but I don't think motoring taxes should be hypothecated to any police force, it would call into question their honesty and integrity in the issuing of fines. Much like targets IMO.
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