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I've decided - life ban for all past cheats!

speedbumpspeedbump Posts: 416
edited May 2007 in Pro race
I've decided that my opinion is that anyone who was a cheat in the past should be banned from anything to do with cycling in the future.

This includes teaching young kids how to ride, or being on tv etc. Riis should not be allowed near a pro team. Basso should never ride in a race again (even a local amateur TT).

I'd hope at least 90% of club riders (who are the backbone of cycling) agree with me.

Posts

  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    I'll be in the 10% that don't agree with you.
  • I disagree.

    Bans are not going to solve anything.
  • speedbumpspeedbump Posts: 416
    Would you allow a past drug dealer to work in a pharmacy, or a burglar to be a locksmith?
  • andrewgturnbullandrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    Hi there.

    Here's a question for you: Do you think that capital punishment is a realistic deterant for those about to commit murder?

    Some people might take the "as well to be hung for a sheep as a lamb" line of thinking.

    Cheers, Andy

    http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
  • andrewgturnbullandrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by speedbump</i>

    Would you allow a past drug dealer to work in a pharmacy, or a burglar to be a locksmith?
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    You are a Tory MP and I claim my œ5!

    ;-)

    http://www.stirlingtri.co.uk
  • speedbumpspeedbump Posts: 416
    No I voted green last time.
  • I would have thought the penitents would be the perfect people to educate the next generation about the perils of doping.

    While we're at it, why doesn't the UCI or whatever build and dedicate a monument to all the cyclists who died in their sleep from EPO abuse? That might put as a few people off as well.



    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

    My Dad's got a Colnago in his garage - but it's too small for me!
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Luigi</i>
    While we're at it, why doesn't the UCI or whatever build and dedicate a monument to all the cyclists who died in their sleep from EPO abuse? That might put as a few people off as well.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Hmmmm - I mashed my shoulder up last year and will be developing arthritis soon enough, can't put my hand on top of my head and will need a shoulder replacement in the next 10'ish years.....because I fell off a bike. Does that make you think about whether you should bother riding? Or do the rewards outweigh the risks?

    I've read a lot of emotive talk about this issue, but what it boils down to is it's against the rules. The rules are difficult to enforce because it's so easy to get past the tests. Some people will cheat if they can get away with it - If they didn't believe they could get away with it, they wouldn't do it.
  • Mr BumbleMr Bumble Posts: 572
    count me in on the rebel 10% please

    A ban will solve nothing...

    and what is to prevent a seperate exdoper/doper league forming?
  • dave5ncpdave5ncp Posts: 3,198
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by speedbump</i>

    I've decided that my opinion is that anyone who was a cheat in the past should be banned from anything to do with cycling in the future.

    This includes teaching young kids how to ride, or being on tv etc. Riis should not be allowed near a pro team. Basso should never ride in a race again (even a local amateur TT).

    I'd hope at least 90% of club riders (who are the backbone of cycling) agree with me.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well thought out. That'll encourage people to come clean. If Riis wants to coach my kids, he'd be very welcome.

    <font color="purple"> <font size="1"><i>please pretend there's a horizontal line here. I couldnt work out how to put one in.</i></font id="size1"></font id="purple">
    You stir my natural emotions
    <font color="purple"> <font size="1"><i>please pretend there\'s a horizontal line here. I couldnt work out how to put one in.</i></font id="size1"></font id="purple">
    You stir my natural emotions
  • Keith OatesKeith Oates Posts: 22,036
    I'm also in the 10%, a life ban will achieve nothing IMO. Having Riis directing a team that is now under a microscope can only be good for the riders and the sport!!

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy

    Ride Daily, Keep Healthy
  • sylvanussylvanus Posts: 1,125
    I can see Speedbump's point which is that if we ever wish to be sure we've conquered doping then we have to make a clean break. Human behaviour in the past is very often the best guide to the future. Honesty, in particular, seems be almost biologically hard-wired and honest people with moral courage tend to be honest in almost every area. I've only ever known a few really crooked people but interestingly they were consistently dishonest even in small matters when they thought they could get away with it and not be noticed.

    However, although I understand the attraction of the idea, I think there have been so few clean professional cyclists that we would struggle to make a clean break. I suspect that both McQuaid and LeBlanc have / had the odd skeleton in their memory even if it is only the odd pill to help get up a hill or finish a crit. That makes it harder for them to be completely judgemental. Sadly the legality and morality of doping is a murky area and its difficult to make black and white distinctions. I do understand your point though and my suspicion is that some team directors like Bruyneel or Riis might be just as tainted as Saiz.

    Maybe, part of what we need is a new breed of Brailsford-like clean professional DS / Team owners who have no / less connection with a highly dodgy past. Perhaps if Brailsford does get to form his UK Protour team we might be part of the way. Lets hope though that Ferretti makes no progress with Weber - he seems to be one of the "old guard".
  • No life ban for coming forward like Riis has, though Riis must explain Cechini's role, which he hasn't done yet. Lifebans for a 2nd offence are best. First offences should provide leniency provided the rider explain who helped, in what way , with proof and thereby takes down some reallly big fish in a verifiable way-which is what's missing. A Basso type confession should result in being run out of the sport as per pro tour rules

    ________Our behaviour is a function of our experience.
  • How can 'we' ban anyone unless we know exactly who is guilty?

    Up till last week, NO-ONE really knew Riis had done anything wrong.

    we may have all had suspicions, but without 'proof', its very hard to exclude anyone.

    Mleh Mleh Mleh
  • LangenbergLangenberg Posts: 453
    I must admit I used to be a bit more forgiving (e.g. with people who seem quite genuine, such as David Millar) but I am getting tired of the whole thing and kind of start agreeing with speedbump.

    I think there is another element: Do we really want people who have admitted to be cheating as directeur sportifs? To be honest: I don't!!

    That applies to Henn, Riis, Aldag (as much as I like him) and, once he is has finished his active career, Zabel, to name a few.

    Oh, and what about known cheats commenting on Eurosport? Some of the older riders maybe difficult cases (e.g. Kelly) but does Virenque really need to commentate?

    And if I see another magazine with Lance on the cover, I am going to be unwell.

    Sorry, feeling a bit grumpy this morning.


    =====================
    Pas de progrŠs sans peigne.
    =====================
    Pas de progrŠs sans peigne.
  • I am with the 10% (for now). We need a period of amnesty and honesty so that the whole Omerta dies. Everyone needs to come out and say "Yes we all did it" and be big and grown up about it. You can't start a fresh with all the fear and lies and the past hanging around like a cloud. I think Riis' attitude is spot on: pragmatic and honest and bodes well for the future. The rest need to fess up and have a giant american man cuddle then we crack on with a cleaner future for racing.
  • I'm in the 10% too.

    Whilst rules were broken it's difficult to judge the morality of people on events that happened ten years ago. At the time there was no test for EPO and the use of it was institutionalised within teams so the individual riders were in a position where they almost certainly had to use EPO to keep their jobs. That's a tough situation for anyone - I don't know how I'd react to that so I'm not keen to condemn.
  • lucretiuscplucretiuscp Posts: 135
    I'm in the 10% too.

    We are now sure virtually if not all the top riders were doing it back then so what would be the point.

    I like the amnesty idea, give people until the end of this year to own up to past offences. If they do then there will be no sanctions. If it is found out ater that, then they will be banned from any participation in the sport for life.

    More importantly in my view is that doctors who are found to aid such things should lose their license and be banned from medecine for life.

    Another important issue is to review the testing procedures and make sure they are not suspect to the degree that they can be questioned in court. Multiple labs to cross-reference results would also be useful.

    Make next year the first genuine year of drug free cycling.
  • I wouldn't ban all the doctors. Some of them may have had the best interests of the riders at heart. Look at the EPO related deaths, they are almost all related to kids who didn't have any supervision.

    Some doctors probably saw it as the best way to minimise fatalities.


    TdG
  • dsoutardsoutar Posts: 1,746
    How many times have I heard "make next year the first genuine year of drug free cycling"

    Unfortunately I'm not with the 10% 'cos I think being lenient sends out totally the wrong message. We've tried almost everything, how about getting tough for a change.

    All riders, if they participate in a pro-tour / UCI event, should be made to adhere to a strict number of out of calendar tests and I don't mean ones administered by their local body.

    The doctors are not the only ones to blame, it's an entire culture from DS, old pros and medical staff. If the doctors should be banned for life, so should the cyclists and don't give me that old, "well they didn't know better". If they don't know better know, they've been living in a cave for the last 40 years.

    End of rant
  • fuzzy29fuzzy29 Posts: 320
    <font face="Tahoma"></font id="Tahoma">I'm with the 10%.

    It can be seen two ways. Firstly, it's only a sport and the ones at risk are the people taking the drugs. The cyclists who dope are still top sportsman who train hard, most days. If it was just one or two, then they should be made an example of. But when it's half the peleton, you have to show an amount of leniency. The current two year ban and four years from a Pro Tour team is effectively more strict than most other sports and should be enough to put riders off cheating.

    Secondly, however, they are cheating the organisers out of prize money and cheating their sponsors out of money. If it's someone like Landis, he's let his team mates down and bought about the loss of many jobs when the sponsor pulled out. The rider that should have won is also missing out on the glory of winning, the appearance fees and sponsorship money. The real value of what Basso, Riis, Pantani, Ullrich, and (possibly) Landis have done is much bigger that just giving back a jersey.


    <hr noshade size="1">If I had a baby elephant, I'd ask Banksy to paint it....
    <hr noshade size="1">If I had a baby elephant, I\'d ask Banksy to paint it....
  • speedbumpspeedbump Posts: 416
    well, I was totally wrong, and over 90% of people who post on here (serious cyclists and fans I presume) actually think that people who cheated and took glory and money from others deserve to receive no punishment!

    I enjoyed watching the Giro today and might just watch the racing and not bother talking about drugs in future. Sod it.
  • NoodleyNoodley Posts: 1,725
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by speedbump</i>

    well, I was totally wrong, and over 90% of people who post on here (serious cyclists and fans I presume) actually think that people who cheated and took glory and money from others <b>deserve to receive no punishment!</b>
    I enjoyed watching the Giro today and might just watch the racing and not bother talking about drugs in future. Sod it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    no, you have jumped from one extreme to the other - life ban to no punishment...perhaps there is a whole lot of something in between? [;)]

    Maybe best to adopt my policy of only replying when someone makes a huge sweeping generalisation that I do not agree with. [:D]
  • ArminiusArminius Posts: 1
    My zwei pfennig: crimp the lot of 'em and leave rest to the vultures!

    Arminius

    but who am I to have an opinion, a mere fan?

    I'm pink, therefore I'm spam!
    I\'m pink, therefore I\'m spam!
  • <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by speedbump</i>

    well, I was totally wrong, and over 90% of people who post on here (serious cyclists and fans I presume) actually think that people who cheated and took glory and money from others deserve to receive no punishment!

    I enjoyed watching the Giro today and might just watch the racing and not bother talking about drugs in future. Sod it.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    this is all a bit silly. Surely you can see that the problem is that Riis wouldn't have confessed if he'd have got a life ban, nor probably would Millar, or Basso to the extent that he has. Instead we'd have endless Landis/Hamilton style legal wrangling. Its the same reason that justice systems allow reduced sentences for guilty pleas.
  • msb123msb123 Posts: 274
    speedbump - your idea is ridiculous. what's done is done. draw a line now and life ban for future offenders. all those who won in the doping days will know that their 'so called' achievements are tarnished and not respected.
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