I've just re-watched stage 17 from last year

Bonus · May 2007

What sort of drug could a rider take, that is undetectable, but would allow such a turn around in performance??

Phil Scp · May 2007

An undetectable one perhaps?

afx237vi · May 2007

But Floyd didn't use the undetectable one, obviously.

ricadus · May 2007

Also remember the time gain he achieved was partly a result of the inability of the chasing teams to cooperate and hunt him down (not that I am in denial about his likely guilt).

londonphoenix.co.uk

Eurostar · May 2007

Perhaps a combination of stuff...perhaps the thing he tested positive for, plus EPO and a masking agent like protease? Plus one of the many things we never get to hear about which aren't tested for? The stakes were so high that no expense was spared.

Philip Davis · May 2007

The most credible theory I've read to account for his performance and his positive test is that he may have been blood doping - using mechanically enriched blood, or 'natural' blood from when he was doing off-season altitude training. This will give a huge one-off boost to oxygen capacity. If someone blood dopes using his own blood it is undetectable (although of course there will be a spike in haemocrit readings) - unless of course you forget that you were using steroids during your off season preparations and there were traces in the stored blood....

I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.' Hunter S. Thompson

Unknown · May 2007

What Philip said

Mleh Mleh Mleh

Eurostar · May 2007

Where does one read this sort of thing Philip?

sylvanus · May 2007

It would be normal to take a cocktail of testosterone, epo and hgh during periods of removing and storing blood. One of the reasons Fuentes got paid was to "clean" the blood of any detectable traces of these substances by spinning out the platelets in a centrifuge.

Presumably Floyd's doctor was not as proficient at spinning as needed. I wonder who he or she is? Is it possible its a Ferrari contact rather than the Ceccini-Fuentes branch. If that were the case then the undiscovered doctor might lead to interesting places!?

Philip Davis · May 2007

Eurostar, I may have remembered it wrong, but I think it was the journalist William Fotheringham who floated that theory - I can't remember where i read it. But I think the evidence would suggest that blood doping is the most common form of cheating these days. You can only get caught doing it if you screw up badly - such as leaving tell tale traces of illegal drugs or mixing the samples up with some other cyclists (which is one theory why Hamilton was *allegedly* caught with someone elses blood in his system). I've been to altitude a few times long enough to naturally boost my red blood cell count and I can attest that you feel supercharged when you get back down to sea level.

In fairness it should be said that it seems that Floyds speed and power output that day were not out of the normal bounds - his win owed as much to good tactics and a screw up by the other teams who couldn't get their act together to chase him down until it was too late.

I hate to advocate drugs, violence or insanity to anyone, but they've always worked for me.' Hunter S. Thompson

xio · May 2007

The other thing (without wishing to open the whole debate again) was that he actually made up a lot of his time on the descents where you'd think performance enhancing drugs would make no difference. Certainly on the descent into Morzine alone he made over 30 secs on the field.

Unknown · May 2007

He wasn't damaged from the previous day - just needed rehydrating and refuelling via drip. But he probably would have been given a little bit of blood and a couple of testosterone patches too.

Then with Merckx's mantra ringing in his ears and that capacity for hard work within him he would have been ready. The thing is, what else could he have done? He had to attack the very next day. In hindsight it was the best strategy for him because his rivals would have thought he was finished, so the best thing to do was go for it and stun them.

The confusion in the peloton allowed him to escape and his will to win did the rest. It's still a great ride even with any 'help' he might have had.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

My Dad's got a Colnago in his garage - but it's too small for me!

ut_o_cykla · May 2007

One thing that I think would help anybody in that position is the constant stream of water bottles he used to keep hydrated and COOL! How many was it - 70? This would perhaps have been even more important if he was feeling supercharged by something (a transfusion etc). Plus, whilst not trying to defend the guy, the idea that its all or nothing can be an incredibly powerful motivator.

Knowing he would be under close observation I do find it difficult to believe he knowingly doped for that stage, but then people do stupid things for glory...

pousse moi s'il vous plait

sylvanus · May 2007

[quite]I do find it difficult to believe he knowingly doped for that stage[/quote]

I'd agree he didn't knowingly dope in the sense the peloton would define it. He, in my opinion, probably took a transfusion of his own blood that contained old traces of testosterone. Its normally undetectable by a drug test and therefore is really not seen as doping. He was unlucky to be caught but again he had little to lose given his position on GC and the upcoming operation.

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sylvanus
I'd agree he didn't knowingly dope in the sense the peloton would define it. He, in my opinion, probably took a transfusion of his own blood that contained old traces of testosterone. Its normally undetectable by a drug test and therefore is really not seen as doping. He was unlucky to be caught but again he had little to lose given his position on GC and the upcoming operation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought this "testosterone showing up from a blood transfusion" theory has been dismissed by experts?

Remember, all the additional B samples they tested all gave the same result too, it's just all the previous A samples T/E ratio was fine so they didn't look for an external source of testosterone.

hevipedal · May 2007

Whether he's guilty or not, and I'll leave that to the courts, the fact is he had no choice but to go on the attack right from the start. It was a shit or bust move. Once he went on the attack the other teams could have caught him but wouldn't work together. Riis even said afterwards he thought it was down to others to do the chasing. So he wanted his team to get a free ride on others work............. and nobody worked except Caisse Espagne and they were hardly the srtongest team there.
I've watched this several times and I love it.

 Hevipedal 
Phrase of the week - I've got a bike. You can ride it if you like.
It's got a basket, a bell that rings and
Things to make it look good.
I'd give it to you if I could, but I borrowed it.
 
51yrs old and Proud of it - Made it to 87kg 2 more to go for the target.
Pedal to Paris Sept 2007

Unknown · May 2007

personally I dont think he did anything brilliant that day other than that fantastic descending...

The peleton just didnt chase him down. I remember watching someone going through the peleton trying to get support for a chase but everyone just shook their head, didnt want to get involved.

The bottles, now theres a thing. Watching the stage myself over the weekend, those handover took an awfully long time (one was about 15seconds while they 'chatted'!) so 70 bottles, say 10 seconds each, thats about 11 minutes of being towed..[:D]

Cyclo2000 · May 2007

He rode on his power meter for a kick off. You'll see a lot more of that this year. The business with the bottles is an accepted part of racing. You're allowed to hold on a wee while as long as you don't take the p@ss. Witness Jullich in Hell on Wheels, taking a wee breather when he nearly goes under the car!
The single biggest reason for the phenominal time gain was the inability of the peleton to organise a chase. I've written this before of course but Brive-Agen anyone? Descartes said "those who do not remember the past are condemned forever to repeat it". How true. Coppi and Geminiani, Bobbet and Van Est made the same mistake as Bruynel and Riis.
That he picked up time on the descents or the climbs is (almost) immaterial. He was not chased down until it was too late - and the phsycological blow to his challengers was decisive - just as Hugo Koblet's was in 51.
Interestingly though, he did seem to pedal all the way down, on the powertap the whole time. As i said at the top, I believe you'll see a lot more of that this year. I cannae get the Giro on my telly but perhaps one of you guys could comment on whether my theory is holding water during this grand tour?

Usquequaque in Ventus
Just once I would like to be called "Sir", without someone adding "You're making a scene".

terongi · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by iainf72
I thought this "testosterone showing up from a blood transfusion" theory has been dismissed by experts?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Dismissed by experts?

Show me more than 1 expert who agree on anything about this?

Unknown · May 2007

I wonder whether people like him and Hamilton were framed because the testers knew from their blood values that they were cheating but couldn't actually prove they'd done anything illegal. I'm surprised we haven't heard any leaks about what his haematocrit levels were.

Radsman · May 2007

in his court thing, there was some vague mention of 48 by the USADA/

Unknown · June 2007

from reading through the court transcripts the thingthat did amaze me was the fact the two people who actually carried out the test do not know how th use the machine.. In the court room they had to ask for help to turn it on, not what id have hoped whne peoples careers are on the line..

bahzob · June 2007

Very interesting analysis of power and climbing here
http://www.flammerouge.je/content/3_factsheets/2006/climb.htm

Of relevance to this thread is paragraph towards the end looking at FL performance in stage 17. Seems to suppor theory that the most exceptional thing about this day was everyone elses inability to recognise what was going on and organise themselves to counter.

Unknown · June 2007

Can you clarify that ? Did they check all his previous samples and not find any external testosterone (sorry , don't know the correct term for that) ?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by iainf72

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sylvanus
I'd agree he didn't knowingly dope in the sense the peloton would define it. He, in my opinion, probably took a transfusion of his own blood that contained old traces of testosterone. Its normally undetectable by a drug test and therefore is really not seen as doping. He was unlucky to be caught but again he had little to lose given his position on GC and the upcoming operation.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought this "testosterone showing up from a blood transfusion" theory has been dismissed by experts?

Remember, all the additional B samples they tested all gave the same result too, it's just all the previous A samples T/E ratio was fine so they didn't look for an external source of testosterone.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Squaggles

Can you clarify that ? Did they check all his previous samples and not find any external testosterone (sorry , don't know the correct term for that) ?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, they performed the same IRMS test on the remaining B samples and they also showed exogenous testosterone was present.

K Blackwell · June 2007

To some extent I believe that Floyd can thank Armstrong.

For the previous 7 years there was one team controlling the peloton. No Lance and it goes to rat****.

The lesson should already have been learned from the Perreiro break when they took 30 minutes. Lance would never allow that as the ere was the stage a few years ago when Kivilev got in to a similar break and finished 5th overall. Lance learned from that.

Then there was the 17th stage. Drugs apart, it's possible to have a bad day and then a good day. And it was clear that the peloton was without leadership. I particularly remember one flat stretch of road when the peloton should have been really oragnised. It was absolutely clear they were looking around at each other. So, at a time when they should have been taking significant time back, they pulled hardly anything back.

Of course if he'd have been knocking out unheard of wattages then everyone would have immediately smelled a rate; instead it would seem that his stats were not out of the ordinary.

As someone else pointed out Hugo Koblet won the 51 Tour with a similar attack and all the stars sat there waiting for each other to organise a chase that never came.

Ultimately, I think it was bad riding by a peloton gotten lazy on the back of Lance and Discovery.

Unknown · June 2007

OK , so the conclusion is that he was using testosterone throughout the race or the test is faulty ?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by iainf72

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Squaggles

Can you clarify that ? Did they check all his previous samples and not find any external testosterone (sorry , don't know the correct term for that) ?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No, they performed the same IRMS test on the remaining B samples and they also showed exogenous testosterone was present.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/

Unknown · June 2007

no the previous results were within UCI limits..!!??

although why there are limits for fake testosterone is beyond me

Unknown · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigdawg

no the previous results were within UCI limits..!!??

although why there are limits for fake testosterone is beyond me
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There isn't. His T:E ratio was within the limits. They only test for an external testosterone source if the T:E ratio is skewed.

Unknown · June 2007

oh ok, that makes more sense!

Unknown · June 2007

So his T:E ratio was only skewed on that one test then ? Or it wasn't skewed but they tested for external testosterone ? Sorry for all the questions , you are been very helpful , maybe you can point me to a website where I could read this all myself ?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by iainf72

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bigdawg

no the previous results were within UCI limits..!!??

although why there are limits for fake testosterone is beyond me
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There isn't. His T:E ratio was within the limits. They only test for an external testosterone source if the T:E ratio is skewed.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/roads4bikes/

I've just re-watched stage 17 from last year

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