How much damage can John Reid do before he goes?

Flying_Monkey · May 2007

John Reid and his junior colleagues seem to be coming up with the most oppressive and extreme ideas they can think of in the few weeks before they leave office, the latest of which is the suggestion that we might have full stop and question laws with œ5000 fines if you refuse to give up your name and address and details of where you are going and why (and of course they can then arrest you and take your DNA and other intimate samples forcibly - that's already law). Last week he was threatening to opt out of the European Convention on Human Rights... oh, and then the Labour Party also instructed its MPs to vote for an utterly hypocritical backbench (Conservative) bill exempting MPs from the Freedom of Information Act. Even Labour peers think this was pretty stupid...

What do they think they are doing? Trying to leave Brown looking 'soft' when he doesn't got through with these ideas? Is John Reid genuinely the most authoritarian Home Secretary we've had for a long time? Does he really believe we should give into the threat of terrorism by doing exactly what terrorists want and ceasing to be a democratic and accountable country? Is he just stupid?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Melvil · May 2007

I do agree that the proposed exemption from FOIA (FOISA up here in Scotland, I have some experience of working with it) is incredibly hypocritical.

I don't know a huge amount about John Reid but personally I think he's an a-hole for opposing the smoking ban when his country was already banning it completely.

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Unknown · May 2007

John Reid is a former communist. Such people tend to be authoritarians by nature.

Canrider · May 2007

Only three posts for Patrick to trot (sic!) out his usual tired line. [V]

You'd (meaning Reid) have to be fairly deluded to think that not going through with these measures would make Brown look soft. More likely it'd give him a ratings boost if he were to come out saying just how stupid and knee-jerk reactionary they really are.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

cuddy duck · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

John Reid is a former communist. Such people tend to be authoritarians by nature.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just once, try not to be a smarmy cockhead purveyor of lazy, formulaic, entirely unilluminating stereotyping.
Biscuit?[;)]

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by cuddy duck

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

John Reid is a former communist. Such people tend to be authoritarians by nature.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just once, try not to be a smarmy cockhead purveyor of lazy, formulaic, entirely unilluminating stereotyping.
Biscuit?[;)]

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just once, try to post without using abuse or personal insults. Look at how the respected members of this forum discuss issues rationally and without personal abuse. I'm sure some of them would help you if you sought their advice.

Flying_Monkey · May 2007

On the other hand, Patrick, it was the kind of comment I'd have expected simoncp to come up with, rather than you...

Can we get back on topic now?

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

On the other hand, Patrick, it was the kind of comment I'd have expected simoncp to come up with, rather than you...

Can we get back on topic now?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Well, actually it was serious comment. Have a look at the political compass website where it assesses political views. The differentials are left-right on economic issues and libertarian-authoritarian on freedom issues. To a certain extent, people's politics are determined by their personalities. Authoritarians tend to remain authoritarians even if their views change.

People have been attracted to communism because of the centralism and the dogmas of the old Soviet led version of it. There's a fascinating book by an ex British communist, Douglas Hyde called, "I believed." Fed up with centralism and dogma, he renounced communism and immediately became a devout Roman Catholic.

cuddy duck · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm sure some of them would help you if you sought their advice.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Great idea. Please will someone help me become a smarmy cockhead purveyor of lazy, formulaic wholly unilluminating stereotyping?
I can pay in biscuits.[;)]

There are 9 million bicycles in Beijing. But no cyclists: that's one thing we can be sure of....

Flying_Monkey · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
To a certain extent, people's politics are determined by their personalities. Authoritarians tend to remain authoritarians even if their views change.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, that's true. But that's rather different that what you said initially which was that this could all be explained by the fact that he'd once been a communist...

My OP was asking why now, though? If these ideas were so great why didn't Reid introduce them before? It's not as if the example of Northern Ireland is new, and in fact NI is slowly going in the opposite direction...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Flying_Monkey

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens
To a certain extent, people's politics are determined by their personalities. Authoritarians tend to remain authoritarians even if their views change.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, that's true. But that's rather different that what you said initially which was that this could all be explained by the fact that he'd once been a communist...

My OP was asking why now, though? If these ideas were so great why didn't Reid introduce them before? It's not as if the example of Northern Ireland is new, and in fact NI is slowly going in the opposite direction...

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My view is that Reid is basically a very authoritarian character (hence his being attracted to Soviet style communism as a young man) and is now instinctively attracted to any ghastly policy purely because it reduces civil liberties. Whether the policy is justified or necessary hardly enters into it - he just likes the idea of people being bossed around and locked up. From a different background, he'd have ended up as a Tory hanger and flogger.

redcogs · May 2007

Reid is a horror, and the perfect Home Secretary of the increasingly unpleasant 'Blairite Project' which has at its heart a total commitment to ensuring that the wealthy and their toads continue to dominate all aspects of society.

The silly idea that Reid's previous attachment to the Stalinised Communist Party might explain his current authoritarian stances also ignores the Thatcher period. Those 'free marketeers' with 'liberty' at the foremost were precisely the ones who delivered all manner of curtailments on individual rights and basic freedoms throughout the 1980s and most of the 90s. Think about Thatchers attempted gag the republicans in Northern Ireland - She proscribed Sinn Fein and wiped its leaders, their faces and arguments from the airwaves. The great leader, was, in effect, telling the so called 'free press' to lie to its viewers and readers, to pretend that a problem censored was a problem solved. i'm not aware of any Communist Party influence, intellectual, psychological or otherwise behind all that dangerous nonsense.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Cunobelin · May 2007

If I was a cynical person, one could see the future:

Gordon Brown - "It wasn't me - It was my predecessor"
Tony Bliar - "It wasn't me - I had resigned at this point - it was a transitional stage"

So there we have it - the real reason why all the unpopular policies (Nuclear Power etc?) are being brought out now!

Cynical - Moi?

He that buys land buys many stones.
He that buys flesh buys many bones.
He that buys eggs buys many shells,
But he that buys good beer buys nothing else.
(Unattributed Trad.)

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Melvil

I do agree that the proposed exemption from FOIA (FOISA up here in Scotland, I have some experience of working with it) is incredibly hypocritical.

I don't know a huge amount about John Reid but personally I think he's an a-hole for opposing the smoking ban when his country was already banning it completely.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Melvil,

My understanding is that FOIA may be changed but the Scottish Act - FOISA - won't be. As a result correspondence between Westminster MPs and Scottish Public Authorities will not be automatically exempt. I've already written to my MP indicating this and expressing my disgust at the proposed change.

The excuses they give are pathetic - protecting their constituents' personal information! Under FOIA as it stands you could redact personal info. Interestingly, if the change goes though, if (in England) you got your councillor, MP and MEP to write to a public authority on your behalf, the councillor's and MSP's correspondence would not be automatically exempt. A case of "do as I say not as I do"[V]

_____________________________________________________________________
Be nice to grumpy old men (or else)

top_bhoy · May 2007

In June, 2004, John Reid described smoking as 'one of the few pleasures available to the poor'. That alone shows the guy up as an arse of the highest degree - he was health secretary at the time!!!

This is my new bike:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure001.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure002.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure003.jpg

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Top_Bhoy

In June, 2004, John Reid described smoking as 'one of the few pleasures available to the poor'.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This was in the context of imposing a smoking ban on private members clubs. I must admit that I had grave reservations about telling people that they could not form a private club for smokers and smoke themselves to death in private. However, unsurprisingly, Reid did not argue the point from a libertarian point of view.

top_bhoy · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Top_Bhoy

In June, 2004, John Reid described smoking as 'one of the few pleasures available to the poor'.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This was in the context of imposing a smoking ban on private members clubs. I must admit that I had grave reservations about telling people that they could not form a private club for smokers and smoke themselves to death in private. However, unsurprisingly, Reid did not argue the point from a libertarian point of view.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Patrick, I don't believe it was in that context as the comments were made at a Labour Party event where he suggested that he was opposed to banning smoking in public because he thought it was better to use education as a means of getting people to quit.

Whatever the background of his statement, it is almost irrelevant - it was to do about banning smoking and I always thought, as Health secretary, it was an ill advised and ludicrous statement to make at a time when in his position he should have been promoting better public health.

Maybe even he had to draw the line at having smoking clubs where you could sign up to smoke yourself to death.[:o)]

This is my new bike:
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure001.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure002.jpg
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p66/ ... ure003.jpg

Gary Askwith · May 2007

Looking through a wider field of view I put the blame in this direction:

[url][/url]http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/bios/Buchanan.html[url][/url]

Quote:

In interview, the economist James M. Buchanan decries the notion of the "public interest", asking what it is, and suggesting that it consists purely of the self-interest of the governing bureaucrats. Buchanan also proposes that organisations should employ only managers who are motivated by money. He describes those who are motivated by other factors-such as job satisfaction or a sense of public duty-as "zealots".

Clinton then Blair embraced this 'public choice theory' and unleashed it in an attempt to (ironically) de-politicse public instititions and make them conform via targeting-control mechanisms...the problem is it does not work... the US neo-cons tried in Russia after the fall of the berlin wall, tried again in 2003 in Iraq and both times it failed totally, spectacularly
rather than throwing it in the bin of utter failures it seems to have metamorphisised into a all-embracing culture where every civic problem can be controlled by new laws, checks and controls rather than looking at the basic problem itself........

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

How much damage can John Reid do before he goes?

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