Should private schools help state schools?

redcogs · May 2007

Dear oh dear.. Three or four of you have eagerly seized upon a small segment of personal reasoning behind a relocation to Scotland as though it is evidence for hypocritical betrayal of political values. Not so.

Each one of you are so tightly wrapped up in your right wing economic individualism that you seem to have no ability to stand back and attempt to view society as it actually is. Perhaps enlightenment is required?

Each one of us reacts to specific problems thrown up by the real world differently, but the truth is that the way we respond individually to such issues has consequences within broader society, this is particularly the case when significant numbers of individuals (groups, classes) begin to react in a similar way to any specific problem (education in the context of this discussion). Any meaningful analysis of human behaviour and society is compelled to recognise this essential fact.

When Cameron and Willetts tell us that it is necessary to dump grammar schools because they "entrench social advantage" they are simply reflecting the overwhelming body of evidence that exists on the matter, and they are identifying an essential contemporary societal problem, ie; the higher your social class, the higher your levels of educational achievement is likely to be, thereby inhibiting social mobility, and simultaneously increasing the material divide between the haves and the have nots.

Significant numbers of people, especially among the socially aware middle class, who see their long term interests being threatened are already responding to these failures of our education system, but there is inevitably an argument about what type of political reaction will be most effective. Many, especially amongst those who are sufficiently resourced (see rae above) are choosing and are able to turn their backs on the state system entirely. Others, often because they are slightly less financially able, are seeking to encourage the state to improve resource levels at the same time as wanting their own children to benefit from a differentiated and selective system.

My preference, as an interested (and lucky enough to own a house) working class observer, is for people, having recognised (along with the high tory aristos!) that it is overwhelmingly working class children who are being failed by the system, not to respond in an individualistic, somewhat middle class 'kick the ladder away' fashion, but rather, to struggle collectively to force governments to initiate appropriate levels of taxation on those who can afford it, and to ensure that education for all is properly financed. However, as a realist living in the real world, i also (reluctantly) recognise that such a collective response is unlikely for the moment, leaving little alternative other than to react in the way i already have.

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

Sorry, redcogs, but in your own way by using your home-owning wealth and consequent mobility, you have done a Diane Abbott

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3229453.stm

It's strange how the left always think the rules they would like to impose on others don't apply to themselves "for personal reasons"!

As if it's not personal for everybody else!

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

However, as a realist living in the real world, i also (reluctantly) recognise that such a collective response is unlikely for the moment, leaving little alternative other than to react in the way i already have.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As he penned these words, redcogs felt himself stangely drawn to the Conservative Party membership application form in front of him...............[;)]

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Sorry, redcogs, but in your own way by using your home-owning wealth and consequent mobility, you have done a Diane Abbott

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3229453.stm

It's strange how the left always think the rules they would like to impose on others don't apply to themselves "for personal reasons"!

As if it's not personal for everybody else!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nonsense spire, my kids go to a state primary not a private enclave.

The educational situation back in England was only one factor (albeit an important one) amongst many which were taken into account prior to our ' emigration'.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Cecy · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

My preference, as an interested (and lucky enough to own a house) working class observer, is for people, having recognised (along with the high tory aristos!) that it is overwhelmingly working class children who are being failed by the system, not to respond in an individualistic, somewhat middle class 'kick the ladder away' fashion, but rather, to struggle collectively to force governments to initiate appropriate levels of taxation on those who can afford it, and to ensure that education for all is properly financed. However, as a realist living in the real world, i also (reluctantly) recognise that such a collective response is unlikely for the moment, leaving little alternative other than to react in the way i already have.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

More theorising with no basis in the real world.

How do you define "working class"? Obviously not on house ownership. What do you mean when you say that "the system" (what system?) fails "working class" children?

And can you explain why you think that the problem with state education is inadequate finance, rather than slacking on the part of teachers who are supposed to be professionals?

cc

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

However, as a realist living in the real world, i also (reluctantly) recognise that such a collective response is unlikely for the moment, leaving little alternative other than to react in the way i already have.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As he penned these words, redcogs felt himself stangely drawn to the Conservative Party membership application form in front of him...............[;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

As Bob Crow intelligently remarked last week - all three main Political Parties share the same basic capitalist economic philosophy. Cameron and Willetts prove the point in this debate absolutely - there is no difference between Tory and Labour or the Libs.. You could apply for a cabinet post under Brown Patrick.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Gary Askwith · May 2007

Patrick is right I have suddenly got a vested interest in childs education and development....because I am pushed for time I have done a quick cut n paste special from various sources which reflect my own thoughts and concerns:

But so far as the UK is concerned, school has become more akin to a battery farm for children, set up for parental (i.e. economic) convenience.

For the past decade or more, schools have been operating to repair a more fundamental societal breakdown. Shifting economic structures have led to profound changes in the organisation of family life: 57 per cent of mothers of children under five are now employed outside the home, and the vast majority of parents have to live where their work takes them - thus reducing the opportunity for the extended family to be involved in child-rearing. Both parents are often unavailable for the children - and when physically present, they are all too often so busy checking their emails, watching TV, texting, or generally multi-tasking that they are to all intents and purposes absent.

The National Curriculum suppresses - pathologises - anything that doesn't fit. Never mind creativity or invention: homogeneity is what matters. And this homogenisation begins at the vast majority of nurseries, regardless of whether they be state-run or private. At even the very nicest and kindest nurseries, children of two are frequently made to sit on a particular square of carpet so they can listen quietly to the teacher. It is bordering on the sinister to think that your child could be offered drugs because he 'runs or climbs when inappropriate' - 'inappropriate' being one of the most weasel words of the 21st century, almost always meaning 'when it doesn't fit the prevailing agenda'.

The breakdown in communities is a critical factor. "Once upon a time, all the neighbours would have known all the kids, and they'd all look out for one another," says Dr John McLaren-Howard. "If someone saw a kid causing trouble, they'd be shouting 'Oy, stop that!' But with everyone out at work and all the children at school or nursery, that community aspect to children's upbringing has disappeared." And with it, the belief that children's behaviour is everyone's responsibility. So instead of whole communities passing on a down-the-generations sense of what's normal behaviour, we have to read books, ask 'experts' and, if all else fails, ask prescription-brandishing doctors with an eye to their next Ciba-Geigy-funded five-star 'conference'.

Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

You could apply for a cabinet post under Brown Patrick.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

And spend my time sucking up to Hedge Fund Managers and Private Equity Leveraged Buyout Specialists. [:0] Give me credit for some personal integrity. [:I]

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">

More theorising with no basis in the real world.

How do you define "working class"? Obviously not on house ownership. What do you mean when you say that "the system" (what system?) fails "working class" children?

And can you explain why you think that the problem with state education is inadequate finance, rather than slacking on the part of teachers who are supposed to be professionals?

cc
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whats your beef about teachers not working hard enough? i direct your attention to the size of the class that redcogs junior attended in England (above). You would need to be superhuman to teach a class size of 41 lively primary kids effectively. my experience suggests that teachers work really hard in an increasingly difficult and under resourced environment. When you throw your dart at a target try and hit the bulls eye not the wall.

please look up to the stars.. ***

mr_hippo · May 2007

redcogs (or is it now bluecogs?), you have been asked many times on this thread on how you would change things but so far what have you done? Nothing but joined the pseudo-elite. You also say that you are 'lucky enough to own a house'. Unlike you, I have never been 'lucky' - I have had to work hard to afford mine!

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

redcogs · May 2007

mr hippo. Try and keep up. i explained above what i believe to be an appropriate response to the problems of education in the UK - ie, a collective struggle, preferably of the organised workers, to force government to properly resource our schools and unis.

i worked for over a quarter of a century and still didn't own my home until ill health forced the insurance company to step in and settle the mortgage - so i should have said, more accurately, lucky and unlucky.

please look up to the stars.. ***

ankev1 · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Canrider

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">The combination of the geographic break-up of society (largely through society's unquestioning acceptance of cheap Private Transport) and the isolating of individuals into Me Me people means that the only involvement non-parents have with schools is to moan about the - be it the outrageous behaviour of the children or the useless output.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'd extend that 'Me Me' judgement to the parents as well! That's the source of the 'we'll move to a better catchment area, after all it'll only add 20 minutes to my commute' kind of logic, where a more effective logic societally would be 'Our local school is in trouble, what can I do to help?'.
How many years has it been since 'Ask not what your country can do for you..'?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hmmm and the last case I'm aware of where parents tried to do that, they got the bum's rush. Do you remember the recent case of mostly working class parents in Liverpool having a test case where they tried to get corporal punishment reintroduced in their kids's school? This of course was thrown out because the educational theorists have long since dominated that bit of ground. So parents can only "help" if they help in the approved manner.

Perhaps it would be an idea if government limited itself to setting targets and producing national exams and left teachers and parents to determine what went on in their schools in order to reach those targets.

tonic_water · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

My preference, as an interested (and lucky enough to own a house) working class observer, is for people, having recognised (along with the high tory aristos!) that it is overwhelmingly working class children who are being failed by the system, not to respond in an individualistic, somewhat middle class 'kick the ladder away' fashion, but rather, to struggle collectively to force governments to initiate appropriate levels of taxation on those who can afford it, and to ensure that education for all is properly financed. However, as a realist living in the real world, i also (reluctantly) recognise that such a collective response is unlikely for the moment, leaving little alternative other than to react in the way i already have.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which, translated into English, means more or less:

"The state education system is in a mess. Somebody else should pay more tax so something can be done about it, but in the meantime I'm voting with my feet. Bad luck on the paupers left behind, but they should have had the good fortune to own a house like me so they could get out too."

Remind me again who it was who said that there is no such thing as 'society', only individuals and families? Because when the crunch time came and it was your child's interests at stake, you were a perfect illustration of that, just like all the rest of us.

--
Well we're alright for tonic water aren't we? We're having a tonic water party!

ankev1 · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

[<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Whats your beef about teachers not working hard enough? i direct your attention to the size of the class that redcogs junior attended in England (above). You would need to be superhuman to teach a class size of 41 lively primary kids effectively. my experience suggests that teachers work really hard in an increasingly difficult and under resourced environment. When you throw your dart at a target try and hit the bulls eye not the wall.

please look up to the stars.. ***
[/quote]

My primary school class had 44 happy kids in it. Our teachers had no trouble controlling us as discipline was not a dirty word and they also had no trouble teaching us i.e. they were no-nonsense professionals. If it could be done then it could almost certainly be done now. What we need to find out is what has gone wrong in the meantime. Have teachers become crap? Is there too much political interference in what goes on in schools? Many would say that tried and trusted methods were replaced by daft fads such as phonetic spelling. I don't know the answers but it might be an idea if somebody found out what they were.

mr_hippo · May 2007

I did not ask for 'what you believe to be an appropriate response'. I asked what YOU were going to do about it. So apart from whingeing, what are YOU going to do?
To paraphrase JFK 'Ask not what your education system can do for you but what you can do for your education system.'

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Hmmm and the last case I'm aware of where parents tried to do that, they got the bum's rush. Do you remember the recent case of mostly working class parents in Liverpool having a test case where they tried to get corporal punishment reintroduced in their kids's school? This of course was thrown out because the educational theorists have long since dominated that bit of ground. So parents can only "help" if they help in the approved manner.

Perhaps it would be an idea if government limited itself to setting targets and producing national exams and left teachers and parents to determine what went on in their schools in order to reach those targets.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yeah ankev, had those Liverpudlian parents succeeded in reintroducing corporal punishment, that would have been such a progressive victory wouldn't it?

Imagine teaching children that violence (ie hitting a child with a cane) is an appropriate response to difficulties and misdemeanours.

please look up to the stars.. ***

gillan1969 · May 2007

here we go again[:)]

oh oh my kids are soooo thick i.e. looking at me and the wife the poor wee blighter has no chance, I better use MY bank balance to try and make sure they get a decent start in life

better not leave them to have the same start in life as everyone else, unlike me who had to work hard to get where I am today blah blah blah

doping makes you go faster in bike races....do the private school brigade advocate doping to "get ahead"?????

www.squadraporcini.com

Canrider · May 2007

Yeah, corporal punishment =/= system of education.

When my primary school library was crap, my mom got a group of volunteer parents together to staff the library, catalogue the books, order new ones. That was over 20 years ago. The same system is apparently still in place and still working. That's the kind of 'what can we do to help?' logic I'm talking about here.

I'm betting the parents trying to reintroduce corporal punishment weren't lining up to volunteer to help beat students at the school, rather, they wanted the teachers to do that for them so they didn't need to at home. Hardly taking an active interest, more shifting responsibility onto the school for parental failures.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

mr_hippo · May 2007

With profound apologies to Pastor Martin Niem”ller (1892-1984)

When the government shut the grammar schools,
I remained silent;
I was not a grammar school oik

When they expanded private education
I remained silent;
I was not a parent at the time

When redcogs junior was in a class of 41,
I did not speak out;
I just tutted, whinged and moaned

When they offered redcogs junior free cello lessons
I moved my family to Scotland.

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gillan1969

doping makes you go faster in bike races....do the private school brigade advocate doping to "get ahead"?????

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They're more likely to suggest good training in elite groups with top coaches.

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

I did not ask for 'what you believe to be an appropriate response'. I asked what YOU were going to do about it. So apart from whingeing, what are YOU going to do?
To paraphrase JFK 'Ask not what your education system can do for you but what you can do for your education system.'

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

mr hippo. i find you irritating, but can't resist patronising you with responses.

i'm an armchair whinger. i've a view, and i express it, either here, or to anyone who cares to listen who i meet.

Does any of that in some way invalidate anything i've stated? i don't quite know what you mean by "what are YOU going to do about it".

please look up to the stars.. ***

Joe Sacco · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mr_hippo

I did not ask for 'what you believe to be an appropriate response'. I asked what YOU were going to do about it. So apart from whingeing, what are YOU going to do?
To paraphrase JFK 'Ask not what your education system can do for you but what you can do for your education system.'

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

mr hippo. i find you irritating, but can't resist patronising you with responses.

i'm an armchair whinger. i've a view, and i express it, either here, or to anyone who cares to listen who i meet.

Does any of that in some way invalidate anything i've stated? i don't quite know what you mean by "what are YOU going to do about it".

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Besides, you've got that revolution to be getting on with first.

mjones · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gillan1969

...
doping makes you go faster in bike races....do the private school brigade advocate doping to "get ahead"?????

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
What a silly comparison. Higher standards, better resourced teaching and a supportive behavioural environment is somehow equivalent to cheating! You can do better than that.[V]

ankev1 · May 2007

Redders and Canrider,

ref corporal punishment. The Liverpudlian parents may not have been progressive but they were after something they believed worked. Attempts at democracy can be so irksome sometimes. CP at my schools did not teach me that "violence is an appropriate response to difficulties and misdemeanours - kids don't intellectualise things like that - it did teach me that if I didn't stay within simple rules of behaviour, I got a sore arse, so I behaved thus making my little contribution to a positive learning atmosphere.

Canrider, "beating" is an over-emotive word for a training shoe across the backside and you know it is. Fortunately kids aren't the big soft Jessies that many adults are and they can manage the chain of logic at the end of which a temporarily sore behind waits. They can also make the decisions as to whether or not they are prepared to do something which has the risk of activating that chain.

You can't educate by CP but it is a useful thing to have in reserve to create the atmosphere in which education can take place.

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

i'm an armchair whinger. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

No you're not. When you saw the problem with little redcogs' school, you moved hundreds of miles so he could attend a better school. You did something about it. That's not armchair whinging.

And you provided an inspiration to those who were left behind. If they acquired their own house, then they could also sell and then buy in a better area so their children could have a decent education.

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

Sorry, redcogs, but in your own way by using your home-owning wealth and consequent mobility, you have done a Diane Abbott

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3229453.stm

It's strange how the left always think the rules they would like to impose on others don't apply to themselves "for personal reasons"!

As if it's not personal for everybody else!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nonsense spire, my kids go to a state primary not a private enclave.

The educational situation back in England was only one factor (albeit an important one) amongst many which were taken into account prior to our ' emigration'.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You are deliberately missing the point:

You used your wealth to do the best by your kids, just as Diane Abbott did.

You are no better or worse than most parents who send their children to private school.

The difference is, private school parents don't tell you what is morally right and what you should do!

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

The difference is, private school parents don't tell you what is morally right and what you should do!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Diane Abbott does. [;)]

Canrider · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Canrider, "beating" is an over-emotive word for a training shoe across the backside and you know it is.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If they were actually proposing asking strangers to beat (and I use the word advisedly) their children with implements, I stand fully behind my comment that this represents them trying to shift responsibility for dealing with their failures as parents elsewhere.

I say this as someone who was smacked as a child and who doesn't reckon it did him any harm. But, I was smacked rarely and by my parents, not by a virtual stranger who had nothing in particular bound up in protecting and nurturing me.

You've failed to comprehend the difference between parents offering to help out at a school to improve it, and parents making further demands of the school in the belief that will improve it without bestirring themselves one iota to make that improvement. Just another Me Me Me, I Pay My Taxes So You Can Beat My Kids So I Don't Have To Be Mean To Them Ever.

Teachers are overstretched, I know, I'm marrying one. Hence my question as to whether the parents were willing to step up and beat someone else's kid so a teacher didn't have to (and could get on with lesson planning?). If in fact they were, I'll be highly surprised.

"We will never win until the oil runs out or they invent hover cars - but then they may land on us." -- lardarse rider

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
No you're not. When you saw the problem with little redcogs' school, you moved hundreds of miles so he could attend a better school. You did something about it. That's not armchair whinging.

And you provided an inspiration to those who were left behind. If they acquired their own house, then they could also sell and then buy in a better area so their children could have a decent education.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ha, as if.

Had the education of the redcogs juniors been the prime motivating influence behind our relocation do you seriously think we would have uprooted and taken the 450 mile option rather than just moving into the catchment area of a 'better' school, (maybe 5 miles tops)?

you might consider that quality of life issues (including schooling) were important also.

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

The difference is, private school parents don't tell you what is morally right and what you should do!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Diane Abbott does. [;)]
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I should have said "most".

Lefty politician private school parents almost always tell everyone else what to do, despite the fact they are doing the opposite themselves "for personal reasons", as already mentioned.

Should private schools help state schools?

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