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The taboo subject of.....Population Growth

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  • Hey, a shaft of light - maybe the problem of human hegemony is about to take care of itself: [:)]

    <font color="blue"><font size="1">"In Japan "people simply aren't having sex" (Kitamura 2006) and the suicide rate has been rising rapidly. <i>Hikikimori</i>, or self-isolation, finds over a million young people staying in their rooms for years. Where the technoculture is most developed, levels of stress, depression and anxiety are highest."</font id="size1"></font id="blue">

    How very reminiscent of EM Forster's The Machine Stops...



    <font size="1">So you voted, and now you've got a government. I just hope YOU like it.</font id="size1">
  • spirespire Posts: 4,077
    Gaz

    A certain irony in starting a thread about over-population and announcing your own impending fatherhood in the very same thread! [;)] [:D]

    All the best though![:)]
  • Gary AskwithGary Askwith Posts: 1,835
    Very interesting Nick
    as a counter this is how the technocratic transhumanists see the future
    [url][/url]http://www.nickbostrom.com/papers/future.pdf[url][/url]

    Dont know whether to [:D] or[V]



    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....
  • Gary AskwithGary Askwith Posts: 1,835
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by spire</i>

    Gaz

    A certain irony in starting a thread about over-population and announcing your own impending fatherhood in the very same thread! [;)] [:D]

    All the best though![:)]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
    thanks Spire
    for the record I did announce it in cake stop about a month ago[:)]



    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by NickM</i>

    Hey, a shaft of light - maybe the problem of human hegemony is about to take care of itself: [:)]

    <font color="blue"><font size="1">"In Japan "people simply aren't having sex" (Kitamura 2006) and the suicide rate has been rising rapidly. <i>Hikikimori</i>, or self-isolation, finds over a million young people staying in their rooms for years. Where the technoculture is most developed, levels of stress, depression and anxiety are highest."</font id="size1"></font id="blue">

    How very reminiscent of EM Forster's The Machine Stops...
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Yeah, but no.

    Japan does have an insane work culture (nothing new there), but on the other hand, Japan has a far greater life expectancy than any other country in the world, great food, a healthy atttiude to new technology (which does not, as this quote implies correlate to where suicide and <i>hikikomori</i> is highest) and a transport system that works - amongst other things. The sex <i>in marriage</i> thing (which is what Kitamura was talking about) has far more to do with the traditional structure of Japanese marriage and is not a new phenomena at all, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if the current low rates are an increase on historical trends. And believe me, there's plenty of sex in Japan... You should try visiting!

    On the OP, of course population is an issue. But it's an issue that would probably resolve itself if a combination of: greater global equity, economic stability (i.e.: the ability to plan for the future knowing that you won't starve next year or in five years' time) and greater female emmancipation were worldwide facts. The demographic transition model (which, redcogs, is not about industrialisation per so, but about those three factors) seems to hold for almost every place that has moved into 'late capitalism'. However this does not address the quantitative issues around consumption: the I=PCT formular still holds, where population is one of three factors in human impact alond with technological development (which can both increase or reduce impact) and the consumption/waste cycle.

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • Gary AskwithGary Askwith Posts: 1,835
    'Would probably'
    'if'
    'were'

    Yeah, yeah but we <i>know</i> that aint gonna happen [V]





    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Gary Askwith</i>

    'Would probably'
    'if'
    'were'

    Yeah, yeah but we <i>know</i> that aint gonna happen [V]
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well it certainly won't if everyone was as pessimistic as you! Human civilisation has brought itself back from the brink many times before and I think humanity will work out ways of saving itself again. I'd just like us not to do by sacrificing everything else outside of humanity. The only way it will do this is by people who believe in better ways of doing things standing up and being counted... just thinking we are all doomed doesn't help and just panders to those on the right who think that's all we have to offer as an alternative.

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Flying_Monkey</i>

    [
    Well it certainly won't if everyone was as pessimistic as you! Human civilisation has brought itself back from the brink many times before and I think humanity will work out ways of saving itself again. I'd just like us not to do by sacrificing everything else outside of humanity. The only way it will do this is by people who believe in better ways of doing things standing up and being counted... <b>just thinking we are all doomed doesn't help and just panders to those on the right who think that's all we have to offer as an alternative</b>.
    <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    That last bit worries me. This is far too big an issue to see in the infantile terms of the left/right divide. And no FM, I'm not accusing you of being infantile, I'm rather referring to the nature of dogmatic politics. That description might fit a bit in the USA but when we consider that the Chinese government seems hell bent on destroying its bit of the planet, the matter seems less black and white. IMO this is one of those issues like education which is far too important for the clowns who are daft enough to subscribe to ideologies instead of thinking things through. It is a problem, possibly the biggest one we face, and we need solutions not dogma.
  • Flying_MonkeyFlying_Monkey Posts: 8,708
    <blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by ankev1</i>
    That last bit worries me. This is far too big an issue to see in the infantile terms of the left/right divide. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">

    Well, you are right to pick me up on this, as it isn't a left-right issue... for example, some hardcore Marxists won't acknolwedge that there can even be such a thing as environmental problems, and the main group of right-wing people who'll have no truck with it are generally those on the very neo-liberal (free market about all else) wing.

    However you see a common theme in the neo-liberal right wing-media that we can safely dismiss anything environmental because greens are pessimistic doom-mongers (hell, that's just about simoncp's only argument!). In my experience this is far from true and those involved in trying to make a better world (from whatever perspective)are optimistic and have some deep-seated feeling for the idea that we can be better than we are - well, of course they do or they wouldn't bother.

    Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety

    Now I guess I'll have to tell 'em
    That I got no cerebellum
  • ankev1ankev1 Posts: 3,686
    Hmmm, we may be as one on this. How very alarming!

    And, yes, simoncp encapsulates the right wing stereotype. I sometimes think that left wing sterotypical opposition (as opposed to genuine opposition from those of a left wing view) is opportunistic as the whole environmental issue provides a potential vehicle for attacking big business, that being the real concern for such people, which in turn fires up the simoncps of this world and meanwhile the planet dries out.
  • Gary AskwithGary Askwith Posts: 1,835
    I see your POV FM and I agree that movements based on negativity would never work but be honest, which side does truth and chance <i>presently favour</i> ...the pessimistic or the optimistic...?
    reliance on the butterfly effect
    [url][/url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect[url][/url]
    Strikes me as hopelessly nieve....

    Personal attitude can be seperate from personal actions...integrity etc
    As I've mentioned, I'm constantly searching for rational reasons to believe it wont happen...i want to believe, but until I do blind faith is no option or subsitute














    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....

    Economic Growth; as dead as a Yangtze River dolphin....
  • windyphilwindyphil Posts: 106
    If everyone rode bikes and the saddle was a bit too high - now that would cut the population growth[:D]

    If only the legs were as good as the bike....
    If only the legs were as good as the bike....
  • pgscppgscp Posts: 1,102
    Certain religions do not agree with birth control, the poor are either too ignorant or cannot afford it, so the irrational poor and stupid will outnumber the enlightened , poverty and imbalance will increase. Economies thrive on growth not equilibrium, in time there will need to be a revolution before we all destroy ourselves or the planet through over production pollution or war.

    The world globalisation largley moves us towards a vast imbalance between rich and poor, something will have to change or we are going the way of the dinosaurs, towards mass extinction.
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