Betrayal as Tories abandon grammar schools

Unkraut · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

And I'll wager most of the Tory front bench will educate their children privately ("a personal matter", of course.)
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Or did you mean Labour front bench?

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
What's wrong with having an Empire anyway? Just imagine being in the Army and looking at the posting plot, wondering whether to plump for Ceylon or Singapore. No sense of romantic adventure, some people.
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Ahem. The expat nature of your current existence is noted. Plumping for Germany seems somewhat unpatriotic doesn't it? It must be the enduring 'tripartism'.
[:)]

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

I don't think there are any Labour front benchers overtly sending their children to private schools, although there is undoubtedly much covert support going on (a la Blair tutors etc).

Amazing though, how backbench lefties like Dianne Abbott rewrite the rules for their own kids and unabashedly educate them privately.

Unkraut · May 2007

Butting in on the redcogs/ankev dispute, Germany is strange in that it combines the existence of a tripartite system with a much less class conscious society, proving that it can be done.

ankev1 · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
What's wrong with having an Empire anyway? Just imagine being in the Army and looking at the posting plot, wondering whether to plump for Ceylon or Singapore. No sense of romantic adventure, some people.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ahem. The expat nature of your current existence is noted. Plumping for Germany seems somewhat unpatriotic doesn't it? It must be the enduring 'tripartism'.
[:)]

please look up to the stars.. ***
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I seem to remember your hero, the late John Lennon OBE (returned) in one of his lucid intervals quoting Sir Winston Churchill as saying: "It is the inalienable right of any Englishman to live wherever he wants on earth". Or something very similar.

Practical imperialism, dear boy, albeit on a small scale. They may not even have noticed that I've taken them over.

Oh and Unkraut's right about the education system here. That said there is a group of loony left teachers in Bavaria (I didn't know that Bavaria allowed lefties in) who want to do away with it so that their edyookashun sistim can be juss az gud az de Inglish won innit.

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unkraut

Butting in on the redcogs/ankev dispute, Germany is strange in that it combines the existence of a tripartite system with a much less class conscious society, proving that it can be done.
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i wonder if the lack of a significant class conscious left in Germany had anything to do with a certain Adolf Hitler rounding up and shooting vast numbers of SPD and communists after 1933?

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

i wonder if the lack of a significant class conscious left in Germany had anything to do with a certain Adolf Hitler rounding up and shooting vast numbers of SPD and communists after 1933?

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To quote Gene Hunt:

The way you say it you're making it sound like a bad thing! [;)]

Unkraut · May 2007

Nope, there were plenty social democrats left (as it were) post 1945 to form SPD governments. I think it is more likely to do with the destruction of the country then, which made class much less relevant, and was an equaliser of a more permanent nature that that which occurred in Britain during the war. The aristocracy had already been abolished with the establishment of a republic. I'm not saying there is no class here, but it is definitely better than Britain in that regard.

In Britain, only the top class is arrogant, whereas in Germany this is spread evenly amongst the population ... [:)]

redcogs · May 2007

Unkraut. my reading of German history suggests strongly that the most influential leaders of the socialist left were executed following the rise of nazism.

The notion that an organisation as significant as the SPD could be decapitated in the way that it was without any impact on the politics of Germay subsequently is wrong.

Every General knows that an effective strategy for defeating the enemy involves 'taking out' its leaders. Just so with the German working class movement - it was brutally crushed by a maniac and his big business supporters who saw (imagined) bolshevism and jews behind the economic collapse of German capitalism.

*"imagined" inserted for clarity*

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unkraut · May 2007

The ideas of socialism continued, and a new generation were free to believe or reject them. If the left had been so comprehensively destroyed, where did the rulers and communist party in East Germany come from?

Germany still has grammar schools, by the way (saying that to prevent the discussion going off topic, you understand).

mr_hippo · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Wake up to the facts spire. Your leader is stating that those of your ilk who support grammar schools (Ankev', Patrick, Mr Hippo) are "delusional".
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Who is 'my leader'?

Human nature being what is is will always have some form of class system. If you think that Uncle Joe Stalin queued up for a loaf of bread with Igor then you are mistaken. There will always be a range of intelligence from genius to numpty. By trying to educate people in a 'one size fits all' environment is doing a great disservice to all. Grammar education is 'elitism', so why isn't streaming the bright students in a comprehensive system not? Putting the bright students in a separate building within the school or on a different floor and what have you created? An elite system! Is Joe the plumber less worthy than me because he can't decline Latin verbs or am I less than him because I cannot change a tap washer?
All civilizations need academics, managers, artisans and labourers. Where would we be if all of us were the same standard discussing the finer points of Plato when we need feeding? If we were all farmers, who would buy our food?

http://bangkokhippo.blogspot.com/

Ex-XXL weigh-in 26/27 May: Update published: Monday 28 May

Unkraut · May 2007

BRING BACK GRAMMAR SCHOOLS!!!

Thought that might be a nice way to celebrate post no. 1000.

redcogs · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Unkraut

If the left had been so comprehensively destroyed, where did the rulers and communist party in East Germany come from?

Germany still has grammar schools, by the way (saying that to prevent the discussion going off topic, you understand).
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They were inserted by Soviet Russian imperial tanks weren't they?

please look up to the stars.. ***

redcogs · May 2007

GRAMMAR SCHOOLS HELP PERPETUATE SOCIAL CLASS BASED INEQUALITY (if you insist on shouting)!

An excellent education for ALL is needed now. Segregating "goats and sheep" at 11 years old benefits only the 'elite'. Required? fundamental economic and social reform. Chances of getting it before i die? minimal.

Pass the bottle..

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Unkraut. my reading of German history suggests strongly that the most influential leaders of the socialist left were executed following the rise of nazism.

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I hope this isn't the start of some David Irving style apologia for Hitler. [;)]

ankev1 · May 2007

Redders,

The leaders of the various left movements and anybody to committed to democracy were all bumped off by the Nazis. You can top a few individuals but you can't eliminate ideas. So most social democrats, liberals, old fashioned "Tories" or equivalent just accommodated themselves with the regime and waited for the inevitable. Thus there were enough people with enough commitment to democracy to take over post war. Konrad Adenauer for instance. He had been the Mayor of Cologne but was untainted by Naziism and so was able to be the first post war Chancellor.

What is interesting is that the post war German settlement seemed to reject all forms of extremism, so whereas you had social democrats, people calling themselves socialists were thin on the ground. The CDU (German Tories) tend not to be fairly middle of the road and certainly have a social conscience.

The rejection of the radical left maybe had something to do with them and the communists being just as enthusiastic participants as the Nazis in street battles in the 1930s. They had also been responsible for post WW1 chaos as they tried to establish a German Soviet Republic, which helped pave the way for Adolf.

Extremism didn't reappear in German politics until the Extra Parliamentary Opposition (APO) appeared around 1967 and that of coursed spawned Baader-Meinhoff. They and the neo-Nazis have of course been largely ignored by the German electorate.

redcogs · May 2007

Unkraut - congrats on 1000 posts. Perhaps the next 1000 will see you trying less hard to straddle the social democratic fence?

[;)]

please look up to the stars.. ***

ankev1 · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

GRAMMAR SCHOOLS HELP PERPETUATE SOCIAL CLASS BASED INEQUALITY (if you insist on shouting)!

An excellent education for ALL is needed now. Segregating "goats and sheep" at 11 years old benefits only the 'elite'. Required? fundamental economic and social reform. Chances of getting it before i die? minimal.

Pass the bottle..

please look up to the stars.. ***
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The country needs elites i.e. the best, in certain positions. There's nothing wrong with elites. The key is to ensure fair access to them and not then to neglect the average (by definition most of us) and the poorly able. You also have to have the prospect of some sort of betterment as an incentive to produce.

Unkraut · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

Unkraut - congrats on 1000 posts. Perhaps the next 1000 will see you trying less hard to straddle the social democratic fence?

[;)]

please look up to the stars.. ***
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Thank you very much! You are a gentleman.

I try not to straddle political fences in case I end up in a splinter group. [;)]

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

1. GRAMMAR SCHOOLS HELP PERPETUATE SOCIAL CLASS BASED INEQUALITY (if you insist on shouting)!

2. An excellent education for ALL is needed now. Segregating "goats and sheep" at 11 years old benefits only the 'elite'.

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1. NO! NO! NO! Grammar schools are the friend of the working class. Old commies and toffs perpetuate class-based inequality.

2. Agreed. And goats learn best with goats, and sheep learn best with sheep.

redcogs · May 2007

You are better (though flawed) at history than politics ankev'.

We need parasitic elites like we need cancer. Think of all the talented humans being absolutely wasted and undiscovered by the discriminatory education practices being utilised by capitalism - their abilities could be helping us all towards a bright future.

The left right street warring in Germany before 1933 was due entirely to the economic meltdown of capitalsm. Blaming the left for the demise of the left is simply victim blaming, and doesn't reflect reality.

please look up to the stars.. ***

Unknown · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

And goats learn best with goats, and sheep learn best with sheep.
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Oh, I don't know - there's a lot a sheep can learn from the right chap. [;)]

simoncp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

GRAMMAR SCHOOLS HELP PERPETUATE SOCIAL CLASS BASED INEQUALITY (if you insist on shouting)!

An excellent education for ALL is needed now. Segregating "goats and sheep" at 11 years old benefits only the 'elite'. Required? fundamental economic and social reform. Chances of getting it before i die? minimal.

Pass the bottle..

please look up to the stars.. ***
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Minimal chance of fundamental economic and social reform before you die? Not so. There is fundamental economic and social reform going on all the time, just not the type of reform you want. Privatisation, PFI, city academies, tuition fees for students, gradual scrapping of the NHS, council house sales, outsourcing of jobs to cheaper countries, ID cards - reform never stops.

redcogs · May 2007

OK Patrick, nowhere do your specifically state your support of grammar schools, so the jury is out. However, your affection, whether it be nostalgic, rather like my own for the mining/steel/shipbuilding communities - seems clear enough.

Perhaps you're 'pragmatic' on this, care to clarify?

Keeping your powder dry in the hope of Party positional advantage is a classic Old Boy tactic. It will never work Patrick. Ones enemies are always in ones own Party are they not?

please look up to the stars.. ***

thomasb · May 2007

"the most influential leaders of the socialist left were executed following the rise of nazism"

What about the ones who escaped to Moscow and later became bosses in the DDR?

redcogs · May 2007

Yes, i failed to define the term "fundamental", thinking that those who come here regularly might take my drift having read my repetitious message repetitiously.

Reform implies 'not terribly significant' for me. So it is correct to suggest that reforms are an ongoing and permanent feature of capitalist democracy, but not interfering with the continuation of the profit accumulation system.

Fundamental = transformative change.

please look up to the stars.. ***

spire · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Patrick Stevens

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by spire

And goats learn best with goats, and sheep learn best with sheep.
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Oh, I don't know - there's a lot a sheep can learn from the right chap. [;)]
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Only the pretty ones![:0]

What about the ugly sheep?

Unkraut · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">What about the ugly sheep?
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They ought to be eliminated by the 11+. [;)]

simoncp · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redcogs

OK Patrick, nowhere do your specifically state your support of grammar schools, so the jury is out. However, your affection, whether it be nostalgic, rather like my own for the mining/steel/shipbuilding communities - seems clear enough.

Perhaps you're 'pragmatic' on this, care to clarify?

Keeping your powder dry in the hope of Party positional advantage is a classic Old Boy tactic. It will never work Patrick. Ones enemies are always in ones own Party are they not?

please look up to the stars.. ***
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I support my local grammar schools. So do most people who bother to vote in local elections round here. It would be electoral death for any party to propose their abolition. The borough council is nearly always Conservative, but we did have a few years of Labour rule recently, and the grammar schools were never a point of disagreement between the 3 main parties. Most children are not part of the 'elite' third who go to grammar, and yet most parents vote for parties that state explicitly that they want the grammars to stay. Democracy in action.

Unkraut · May 2007

What happens if the national govt in Westminster is elected with a mandate to abolish grammar schools? Should that override the local authority, or not? You couldn't say such an action was undemocratic.

Betrayal as Tories abandon grammar schools

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