HGV menace

Simon L2 · May 2007

I'm sorry to cut across this thread, but at least two of these deaths occured when a lorry turned left from the right hand lane while overtaking a cyclist. So you can shove the undertaking ****e straight up your collective fundaments. In both cases the design of the roadway might be improved, but truck drivers have a responsibility to ensure that they can get around a corner without killing people. Talking about blind spots is crass. If you've got 38 tonnes of stuff under your control then you don't proceed unless it's safe to do so.

Some fleet employers, and TfL give training. The problem with construction traffic in particular is that drivers work for themselves or for small firms, that there is a high premium on getting there on time (exacerbated by the restrictions on driving hours, but that's another, and more complex, story), and there is no training. It's to be hoped that this will change, and that we'll see an improvement in HGV driving standards, which, in London, are lamentably low. It does annoy me that we have to highlight the perils of lifting a 20 kilo block or face the full ire of the HSE, and yet nobody, and certainly not the HSE, is at all interested in the 20 tonnes of steel or rubble coming to and from the site.

Yesterday I was followed over Tower Bridge by a skip (one of the 40 foot ro-ro jobs) lorry some six feet from my back wheel. I was closer to the bus in front than I should have been and doing the 20mph speed limit. Words were exchanged. It's not unusual to be menaced by these idiots, who seem to exist in their own little bubble culture.

Rhythm Thief · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

I'm sorry to cut across this thread, but at least two of these deaths occured when a lorry turned left from the right hand lane while overtaking a cyclist. So you can shove the undertaking ****e straight up your collective fundaments. In both cases the design of the roadway might be improved, but truck drivers have a responsibility to ensure that they can get around a corner without killing people. Talking about blind spots is crass. If you've got 38 tonnes of stuff under your control then you don't proceed unless it's safe to do so.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's fair enough, and (obviously) I'd never condone overtaking a cyclist while turning left, but blind spots are and always will be a reality on a vehicle which bends in the middle and in which the driver sits ten feet off the ground. It's not "crass" to point this out. I'd agree that more HGV driver education regarding cyclists would be a good thing - I've been carved up by a left turning artic a couple of times - but equally, there's nothing wrong with the idea of educating cyclists to keep away from the left hand side of lorries. If you're next to a truck, you're making it exponentially* more difficult for the driver to see you, which is a Very Bad Thing.

*Word used for illustrative purposes only.[;)]

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Buffalo Bill · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dondare

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by linfordlunchbox

If Tabernacle is to be believed, and these numbers are also to be believed, then 50% of cyclists are killed by HGVs and the other 50% are wiped out by 4x4s so no more complaining when mondeo man or chav boy in his saxo cuts you up OK !

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's 25% for HGVs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nationally, in the last 3 years for which figures are available 2003 - 05, 26, 22 & 26 cyclists were killed by HGVs. I don't the total number of cyclists killed in the UK for those years.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article ... st-3-years

In the last 12 month period for which I have figures, to June 2006, 17 cyclists were killed in London, of which 9 were killed by Goods Vehicles, which is more than 50%. Since 1999, around 40 - 50 % of cyclists killed in London have been killed by HGVs.

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/article ... more-stats

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

Some fleet employers, and TfL give training. The problem with construction traffic in particular is that drivers work for themselves or for small firms, that there is a high premium on getting there on time (exacerbated by the restrictions on driving hours, but that's another, and more complex, story), and there is no training. It's to be hoped that this will change, and that we'll see an improvement in HGV driving standards, which, in London, are lamentably low. It does annoy me that we have to highlight the perils of lifting a 20 kilo block or face the full ire of the HSE, and yet nobody, and certainly not the HSE, is at all interested in the 20 tonnes of steel or rubble coming to and from the site.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

These are some of the points that road danger campaigners have been to the so-called 'road safety professionals' for a number of years.

As I have said before, with the biggest construction project for some years just over the horizon in East London, I fear for Uncle Ken's road casualty reduction targets unless some action is taken.

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Simon L2 · May 2007

The Olympics will present a fresh set of dangers. Temporary road closures and junctions, drivers unfamiliar with their surroundings and, one suspects, the mother of all rushes.

I'm confident that TfL are going to address the problem.

In reply to Rhythm Thief - I appreciate that you drive a truck and I don't - but there shouldn't be any blind spots on the left if you're turning left. There might well be blind spots on the right, and that's not without danger, but on the left - no. I really do think that we have a problem with HGVs (and not neccessarily artics) in London. It's called bad driving.

BentMikey · May 2007

I wrote this article a couple of weeks ago, got any comments?

http://www.londonskaters.com/cycling/sa ... hicles.htm

It'll go out in the next newsletter, to around 6k people.

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gavintc · May 2007

I am afraid that it is quite impossible to remove all the 'blind' spots on an LGV. The radius of turn available on long vehicles frequently demands that the driver will position himself slightly out from the kerb when making a left turn. This can imply to a cyclist that a free lane is being opened for him down the left side of the truck. The mirrors will provide visibility down both sides of the vehicle, but like in a car, there is a limit in how far out you can see. In other words a bike, positioned some 6 feet from the side of a vehicle will be blind but in a dnagerous position from a left turning truck. I accept that truck drivers must take care. But, when you are driving in heavy traffic, you must take care all around the vehicle and not concentrate solely watching out for the 'Darwin-Award' cyclist who wants to undertake you when turning left. Like most things in life, it is not a black and white issue, there are shades of grey with responsbility on both sides; cyclist and LGV driver.

Simon L2 · May 2007

I'm sorry, but the bendybusses have no blind spots. The drivers spot cyclists coming up on the left (which I accept is daft) without difficulty. If they can manage it why can't skip lorry drivers? It's just a question of getting the equipment right and taking care. If a particular left turn is dangerous then they shouldn't be doing it - but some of these 'accidents' are on sweeping left turns, or left turns from the right hand lane. I can't for the life of me see how you cannot be aware of what is to your left on the A501.

Bear in mind that HGVs are expensive items. The newer ones have rear wheel steering and all sorts. If they can't sort out the visibility thing then they shouldn't be driving in London.

This reminds me of the fuss and bother that attended the GLCs rating of HGVs back in the County Hall days, together with the imposition of noise limits. There were shrieks of 'it can't be done', 'London will die', and so on. The trucks that belched black smoke (and there were a lot of them) just went to the HGV graveyard. Almost overnight cyclists learnt to manage without black sweat streaks on their faces.

paulwood · May 2007

any vehicle has "blind spots". Even with a small car it is possible for a toddler to wander across the front, close to the car, unseen by the driver. Bendy buses have a low driving position, partly to give the driver a good view for urban driving. lorry drivers sit higher, partly to give the driver a high vantage poing more suited to motorway style driving.

some lorries are huge, the driver cannot see the ground within yards of his cab in front or to the nearside. more mirrors can help but the driver has to look in 4 or 5 mirrors as it is. the size of the lorry means that a glace isn't sufficient to take in everything anyway.

yep, if the truck overtakes you and turns left at the same time then not your fault. Any other time, just don't be alongside the nearside of the lorry. If you want to overtake him then do it along the offside.

dondare · May 2007

Bendies have flat fronts and huge windscreens. The driver can see what's in front better than some much smaller vehicles.
Given their intended use it would be criminal if the driver couldn't see where he was going or where his rear wheels were going.
They're still a bloody menace, tho'.

Baby elephants? Pah!!

linfordlunchbox · May 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Simon L2

I'm sorry, but the bendybusses have no blind spots. The drivers spot cyclists coming up on the left (which I accept is daft) without difficulty. If they can manage it why can't skip lorry drivers? It's just a question of getting the equipment right and taking care. If a particular left turn is dangerous then they shouldn't be doing it - but some of these 'accidents' are on sweeping left turns, or left turns from the right hand lane. I can't for the life of me see how you cannot be aware of what is to your left on the A501.

Bear in mind that HGVs are expensive items. The newer ones have rear wheel steering and all sorts. If they can't sort out the visibility thing then they shouldn't be driving in London.

This reminds me of the fuss and bother that attended the GLCs rating of HGVs back in the County Hall days, together with the imposition of noise limits. There were shrieks of 'it can't be done', 'London will die', and so on. The trucks that belched black smoke (and there were a lot of them) just went to the HGV graveyard. Almost overnight cyclists learnt to manage without black sweat streaks on their faces.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I have to disagree with this one Simon. There are blind spots on my daughters Corsa which has got to be one of the smallest cars on the road. There are huge blind spots on cars like Porsches which are so low to the ground, you are limited in visibility by design, and the only mirrors which are any good on a bus or lorry are the ones attached to the doors, ad they still don't catch it all.

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Ryedaleman · May 2007

Unfortunately t there are quite a few rogues driving trucks in london. Skip and tipper drivers often have standards below what might be termed acceptable, I wish it was n't true but thats life, other truckers often complain about them but little is done.
However my point remains the same, undertaking any vehicle especially when it's moving is putting your self in danger. When the indicators are going as well is just suicidal. On the road you have to take responsibility for youself and NOT rely on others to "see you."

A little forethought and planning goes a long way and question why that truck has it's left indicator going but is in the right hand lane, is it "pinching abit" to get around the tight left hander?
Wait a second or two and see what happens...not well sod him I'll beat him through the gap!

rothbook · May 2007

Agreed ryedaleman, and skip lorries, a particular bugbear of mine. Assume all lorry drivers are psychopathis functional alcoholics and you won't go far wrong. All drivers, come to that, I am even-handed in my prejudice, oxymoronically.

pliptrot · June 2007

Mark Felber,

have you cycled or used the roads much in the UK? I'm a Brit and I've been here in the US (TX) since 2003 - so far I have to say that drivers are far more considerate here than back home, and that they drive slower. Generally I think the wider roads, many with shoulders, contribute to the feeling, but things seem better. Now, the US deference to business means that many more large trucks are clearly poorly maintained (lack of regulation), and driven on highways with reckless abandon. So am I lucky on the roads I cycle on here? Certainly it seems the police are as disinterested in the plight of non-motoring road users as back in the UK, which is no real surprise.

mark1956 · June 2007

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pliptrot

Mark Felber,

have you cycled or used the roads much in the UK? I'm a Brit and I've been here in the US (TX) since 2003 - so far I have to say that drivers are far more considerate here than back home, and that they drive slower. Generally I think the wider roads, many with shoulders, contribute to the feeling, but things seem better. Now, the US deference to business means that many more large trucks are clearly poorly maintained (lack of regulation), and driven on highways with reckless abandon. So am I lucky on the roads I cycle on here? Certainly it seems the police are as disinterested in the plight of non-motoring road users as back in the UK, which is no real surprise.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I've done two cycle tours in the UK covering parts of England, Wales, and Scotland, and cycled in London at the start and end of each tour. Cyclist-motorist and cyclist-police relations vary pretty widely from region to region in the US, and from the stories I've heard about Texas you seem to be lucky in the roads you cycle on.

The wide roads and low speed limits create a sense of security, but US drivers are not especially attentive and I've seen figures that show the US having a higher fatality rate per vehicle-mile of travel than the UK. I think the wide roads and low speed limits offer a false sense of security, and big cars/SUVs with automatic everything and coffee cup holders everywhere exacerbate the false sense of security.

The US trucking industry is, as you say, badly regulated and a source of danger to the public. The larger trucking companies understand the impact of accidents and bad driving on their balance sheets and discipline their drivers accordingly, but the smaller companies and the owner-operators seem to feel no such constraints. From what I've read in this thread, the situation seems to be much the same in the UK, except that the roads are much more crowded and less suited to motor vehicle traffic, making motorists and truckers more aggressive.

mark

HGV menace

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