First official TT - mildly disappointing

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CptKernow
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby CptKernow » Thu Aug 01, 2019 09:52 am

Did the same course again yesterday. Did 24:56 this time which included a bit of a hold up in traffic. So, some improvement, but still a way to go.

This time I didn't try to ride to a target power, I just tried to make sure I didn't drop below a certain number. Ended up at 256w avg - just under 4w/kg. Felt a lot better than last time on the first 3/4 too.

Still a good bit slower than some guys putting out similar power, and still feels harder to get the power out than when I'm on the base bars.

I feel my position overall is quite good - at least it's low and narrow. Any suggestion on what to try tweaking?

At the end of the day I want to get under 24 mins without spending any more money...

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Cruff
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Cruff » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:25 am

CptKernow wrote:Did the same course again yesterday. Did 24:56 this time which included a bit of a hold up in traffic. So, some improvement, but still a way to go.

This time I didn't try to ride to a target power, I just tried to make sure I didn't drop below a certain number. Ended up at 256w avg - just under 4w/kg. Felt a lot better than last time on the first 3/4 too.

Still a good bit slower than some guys putting out similar power, and still feels harder to get the power out than when I'm on the base bars.

I feel my position overall is quite good - at least it's low and narrow. Any suggestion on what to try tweaking?

At the end of the day I want to get under 24 mins without spending any more money...

Train more
Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Transplanted Laaandoner.

CptKernow
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby CptKernow » Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:16 am

Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

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Cruff
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Cruff » Thu Aug 01, 2019 12:49 pm

CptKernow wrote:
Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

:D

It was a glib statement, but in reality, if you don't want to spend any more money it's the only thing that will work (other than getting lower, or more narra, or losing weight)

Even then, you're looking at a pretty big investment in training time to drop from 24:50 to sub 24:00 - a strong winter of over/unders and base miles will get you there but you aren't likely to get sub 24:00 this year

In order of effectiveness, provided you've gone as far as you can with your position on your own, then investing in a skinsuit will provide the biggest bang for your buck, followed by a TT lid, followed by a deep section front wheel, followed by a rear disc, , followed by wind tunnel testing, followed by a better TT frame. Actually, wind tunnel testing will probably give you greater overall benefit, but will be very expensive
Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Transplanted Laaandoner.

Webboo
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Webboo » Thu Aug 01, 2019 13:21 pm

Cruff wrote:
CptKernow wrote:
Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

:D

It was a glib statement, but in reality, if you don't want to spend any more money it's the only thing that will work (other than getting lower, or more narra, or losing weight)

Even then, you're looking at a pretty big investment in training time to drop from 24:50 to sub 24:00 - a strong winter of over/unders and base miles will get you there but you aren't likely to get sub 24:00 this year

In order of effectiveness, provided you've gone as far as you can with your position on your own, then investing in a skinsuit will provide the biggest bang for your buck, followed by a TT lid, followed by a deep section front wheel, followed by a rear disc, , followed by wind tunnel testing, followed by a better TT frame. Actually, wind tunnel testing will probably give you greater overall benefit, but will be very expensive

Reading this I wonder how everybody managed back in the day. When other than a skinsuit it was steel framed bikes, no aero helmets, bars or wheels. Training was rather rudimentary as well.
I would argue that from a 24:50 you should be able to get under 24 mins with a bit of hard work and getting to know where you need put in the hard efforts on the course. As other people’s power is showing that you are not far off.

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Cruff
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Cruff » Thu Aug 01, 2019 14:39 pm

Webboo wrote:
Cruff wrote:
CptKernow wrote:
Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

:D

It was a glib statement, but in reality, if you don't want to spend any more money it's the only thing that will work (other than getting lower, or more narra, or losing weight)

Even then, you're looking at a pretty big investment in training time to drop from 24:50 to sub 24:00 - a strong winter of over/unders and base miles will get you there but you aren't likely to get sub 24:00 this year

In order of effectiveness, provided you've gone as far as you can with your position on your own, then investing in a skinsuit will provide the biggest bang for your buck, followed by a TT lid, followed by a deep section front wheel, followed by a rear disc, , followed by wind tunnel testing, followed by a better TT frame. Actually, wind tunnel testing will probably give you greater overall benefit, but will be very expensive

Reading this I wonder how everybody managed back in the day. When other than a skinsuit it was steel framed bikes, no aero helmets, bars or wheels. Training was rather rudimentary as well.
I would argue that from a 24:50 you should be able to get under 24 mins with a bit of hard work and getting to know where you need put in the hard efforts on the course. As other people’s power is showing that you are not far off.

If he was coming from an untrained position, with no improvement having been made in aero or position, then yeah. As it is, he's already stated he can't really do much more position-wise, so provided he's not wearing a parachute, knocking 50 seconds off a 10 without some real graft in training would be no mean feat.

As to what they did 'back in the day' - depends who you talk to. They either trained reet hard, or rode behind cars in the middle of the lane to get a better draft :lol: :lol: :lol:
Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Transplanted Laaandoner.

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Franco di Banco
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Franco di Banco » Thu Aug 01, 2019 14:46 pm

Those were the days when we used to dream of Saturday afternoon events on the A1 in Yorkshire. The drafting effect was a given. Courses were so fast that you had to be fast to get in. 50-55 minute "25"s were almost a given. T252, V134 etc.

Yes steel frames, but aero helmets and tribars had arrived. No need to ride in the middle of the carriageway (and it would have been suicidal) because the volume of traffic just sucked us all along.

Happy days.

Simon E
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Simon E » Thu Aug 01, 2019 15:43 pm

CptKernow wrote:
Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

Cheapest by far.

If you already have a TT frame, 50mm wheels, skinsuit and aero hat you've covered the main areas for improvement using your wallet, short of wind tunnel/velodrome testing.

I'd expect to be a bit quicker than 24:56 off 250 watts. It can be misleading to compare with unfamiliar people on different courses but last night a slippery young rider got under 22 minutes on a flat course with that power yet 2 others on good kit (Ribble Ultra, Trinity Advanced, both with deep front + disc) only managed around 23:30 with a few more watts.
Aspire not to have more, but to be more.

Webboo
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Webboo » Thu Aug 01, 2019 19:03 pm

Cruff wrote:
Webboo wrote:
Cruff wrote:
CptKernow wrote:
Cruff wrote:Train more


Guess that'd be the cheapest option!

:D

It was a glib statement, but in reality, if you don't want to spend any more money it's the only thing that will work (other than getting lower, or more narra, or losing weight)

Even then, you're looking at a pretty big investment in training time to drop from 24:50 to sub 24:00 - a strong winter of over/unders and base miles will get you there but you aren't likely to get sub 24:00 this year

In order of effectiveness, provided you've gone as far as you can with your position on your own, then investing in a skinsuit will provide the biggest bang for your buck, followed by a TT lid, followed by a deep section front wheel, followed by a rear disc, , followed by wind tunnel testing, followed by a better TT frame. Actually, wind tunnel testing will probably give you greater overall benefit, but will be very expensive

Reading this I wonder how everybody managed back in the day. When other than a skinsuit it was steel framed bikes, no aero helmets, bars or wheels. Training was rather rudimentary as well.
I would argue that from a 24:50 you should be able to get under 24 mins with a bit of hard work and getting to know where you need put in the hard efforts on the course. As other people’s power is showing that you are not far off.

If he was coming from an untrained position, with no improvement having been made in aero or position, then yeah. As it is, he's already stated he can't really do much more position-wise, so provided he's not wearing a parachute, knocking 50 seconds off a 10 without some real graft in training would be no mean feat.

As to what they did 'back in the day' - depends who you talk to. They either trained reet hard, or rode behind cars in the middle of the lane to get a better draft :lol: :lol: :lol:

As you had to be under the hour or done a 22 to get in any races that were on the A1 or similar. You had to either lie about how fast you went in your club 10 or be able ride without traffic assistance. Training wise it was sprinting between lamp posts or through and off.
I still it’s more about application.

CptKernow
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby CptKernow » Thu Aug 22, 2019 10:43 am

Managed 24.40 last night on the same course. This time my avg watts were 260 (~4w/kg).

Didn't use the power meter so much as a guide - just as a stick to make sure I didn't slack off. Power still came out very consistent and HR was more or less flat throughout...

Still a bit disappointed as I thought this wattage on an out and back (1% out) course should get me under 24 mins.

I suppose at least now I have a target for next year. Having not done any TT specific training to date I can focus more or this - plenty of plans out there.
May also try and get some 3rd party assessment on my position as I'm losing a bit of power and the numbers seem to suggest I'm not as slippery as I could be...

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Cruff
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby Cruff » Thu Aug 22, 2019 14:29 pm

CptKernow wrote:Managed 24.40 last night on the same course. This time my avg watts were 260 (~4w/kg).

Didn't use the power meter so much as a guide - just as a stick to make sure I didn't slack off. Power still came out very consistent and HR was more or less flat throughout...

Still a bit disappointed as I thought this wattage on an out and back (1% out) course should get me under 24 mins.

I suppose at least now I have a target for next year. Having not done any TT specific training to date I can focus more or this - plenty of plans out there.
May also try and get some 3rd party assessment on my position as I'm losing a bit of power and the numbers seem to suggest I'm not as slippery as I could be...

Do yourself a favour and post over on timetriallingforum

There are any number of people there who will help you out - much more knowledgeable than me or any of the other choppers on here :lol:

If you ask nicely and post a picture of yourself, some of them will even give you pointers on making improvements based on your position

As for expecting a sub 24 minute on a course based on a specific wattage - so many other factors come into play that it's not possible to be anything like that precise. Wind, air pressure, road surface, applying a bit extra in the right places, technique at the turn, draft effect from passing traffic etc. etc.. There's a tool called MyWindsock (developed by a bloke who rides one of my local 10s actually) that will make a reasonable fist of telling you what your time *should* look like on a given course, with the power number you enter, on a given date, with the forecast weather - but even this isn't infallible. I've 'beaten' my expected time for a 10 by over a minute (good legs) and been 'slower' by over 30 seconds (sh*t legs)
Fat chopper. Some racing. Some testing. Some crashing.
Specialising in Git Daaahns and Cafs. Transplanted Laaandoner.

CptKernow
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Re: First official TT - mildly disappointing

Postby CptKernow » Fri Aug 23, 2019 11:19 am

Cruff wrote:Do yourself a favour and post over on timetriallingforum

There are any number of people there who will help you out - much more knowledgeable than me or any of the other choppers on here :lol:

If you ask nicely and post a picture of yourself, some of them will even give you pointers on making improvements based on your position

As for expecting a sub 24 minute on a course based on a specific wattage - so many other factors come into play that it's not possible to be anything like that precise. Wind, air pressure, road surface, applying a bit extra in the right places, technique at the turn, draft effect from passing traffic etc. etc.. There's a tool called MyWindsock (developed by a bloke who rides one of my local 10s actually) that will make a reasonable fist of telling you what your time *should* look like on a given course, with the power number you enter, on a given date, with the forecast weather - but even this isn't infallible. I've 'beaten' my expected time for a 10 by over a minute (good legs) and been 'slower' by over 30 seconds (sh*t legs)


Well, I have til next spring to work on pedalling harder.

Might sign up for timetriallingforum, but I don't want to go too far down the tester route! May even post a photo, but I generally try and keep my TT look for as small an audience as possible :)


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