BREXIT - Meh.

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TailWindHome
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby TailWindHome » Fri Jul 12, 2019 22:33 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.
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Re: BREXIT - Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Go Go

Postby TailWindHome » Fri Jul 12, 2019 22:56 pm

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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby Rick Chasey » Sat Jul 13, 2019 06:38 am

TailWindHome wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.


It’s not so much opinion as fairly factual.

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Stevo 666
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby Stevo 666 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 09:51 am

TailWindHome wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.

Fair point but the two are linked. As endorsing the view would entrench the US attitude towards Darroch as the representative of the UK in the States and make it impossible for him to do his job properly.

Also explains what some on here have been questioning; namely that he was not given unequivocal support as it puts the UK in an awkward situation.
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby rjsterry » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:49 am

Stevo 666 wrote:
TailWindHome wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.

Fair point but the two are linked. As endorsing the view would entrench the US attitude towards Darroch as the representative of the UK in the States and make it impossible for him to do his job properly.

Also explains what some on here have been questioning; namely that he was not given unequivocal support as it puts the UK in an awkward situation.


We've managed to cope with far more awkward situations without any resignations. The Prime Minister has publicly criticised Trump on a number of occasions, albeit in less blunt terms and no diplomatic staff were expelled or summoned for a dressing down in Washington. We even had a full state visit. And the foreign secretary and PM did back Darroch unequivocally. It was only one of the prospective leaders that wavered on this, and he has now conceded that Darroch told him his lack of support was a factor in the resignation.
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby Stevo 666 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:39 pm

rjsterry wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
TailWindHome wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.

Fair point but the two are linked. As endorsing the view would entrench the US attitude towards Darroch as the representative of the UK in the States and make it impossible for him to do his job properly.

Also explains what some on here have been questioning; namely that he was not given unequivocal support as it puts the UK in an awkward situation.


We've managed to cope with far more awkward situations without any resignations. The Prime Minister has publicly criticised Trump on a number of occasions, albeit in less blunt terms and no diplomatic staff were expelled or summoned for a dressing down in Washington. We even had a full state visit. And the foreign secretary and PM did back Darroch unequivocally. It was only one of the prospective leaders that wavered on this, and he has now conceded that Darroch told him his lack of support was a factor in the resignation.

One head of government criticising another one is not the same as an ambassador to a country criticising their host administration. PMs/Presidents have many roles whereas the ambassador's role is much narrower and focussed on dealing with their host administration. Nor is the public vs private/leaked nature of the two scenarios the same, clearly.

I notice you said 'a factor' rather than 'the factor'. He probably would have gone regardless of Boris' position in my view. But as mentioned above, some people are trying to make it more about Boris than the wider situation here.
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby rjsterry » Sat Jul 13, 2019 14:41 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
TailWindHome wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:... the more fundamental point of whether an ambassador can function properly when the host country refuses to engage with him - for whatever reason.


This isn't the issue. IMO

If the ambassador stayed in place the UK would be publicly endorsing his opinion of Trump.

He couldnt be kept.
He couldnt be sacked.
He had to resign.

Fair point but the two are linked. As endorsing the view would entrench the US attitude towards Darroch as the representative of the UK in the States and make it impossible for him to do his job properly.

Also explains what some on here have been questioning; namely that he was not given unequivocal support as it puts the UK in an awkward situation.


We've managed to cope with far more awkward situations without any resignations. The Prime Minister has publicly criticised Trump on a number of occasions, albeit in less blunt terms and no diplomatic staff were expelled or summoned for a dressing down in Washington. We even had a full state visit. And the foreign secretary and PM did back Darroch unequivocally. It was only one of the prospective leaders that wavered on this, and he has now conceded that Darroch told him his lack of support was a factor in the resignation.

One head of government criticising another one is not the same as an ambassador to a country criticising their host administration. PMs/Presidents have many roles whereas the ambassador's role is much narrower and focussed on dealing with their host administration. Nor is the public vs private/leaked nature of the two scenarios the same, clearly.

I notice you said 'a factor' rather than 'the factor'. He probably would have gone regardless of Boris' position in my view. But as mentioned above, some people are trying to make it more about Boris than the wider situation here.


Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.

Anyway, I'm sure you approve of the heckler in Cheltenham :)
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Stevo 666
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Re: BREXIT - Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Go Go

Postby Stevo 666 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 14:58 pm

Some of this may be simply down to a greater awareness of electronic media and how easy it is to distribute. I'm sure that in years gone past, comments like these would be done as a private conversation or a phone call.

I mean, even letters can get leaked as this bloke who was an ambassador back in WW2 found out :)

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Re: BREXIT - Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Boris Go Go Go

Postby Robert88 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 15:40 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:Some of this may be simply down to a greater awareness of electronic media and how easy it is to distribute. I'm sure that in years gone past, comments like these would be done as a private conversation or a phone call.

I mean, even letters can get leaked as this bloke who was an ambassador back in WW2 found out :)

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I don't think he did find out. He was was dead 27 years before the letter was leaked.

When he asked Churchill for instructions he was told:

"I don't mind kissing Stalin's bum, but I'm damned if I'll lick his ars*!"

Johnson should bear that in mind vis-à-vis Trump should he be selected to follow Winston Churchill as PM.

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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby awavey » Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:04 am

rjsterry wrote:Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.


why was the leak clearly targeted to get rid of Darroch ? the guy was retiring in 6months anyway whoever ends up as PM has got far more pressing matters to deal with than worrying about the US, theyve just had a state visit,and the new PM gets to choose a successor more to their liking, so I dont see whats been gained by the leaker for dumping Darroch, except its allowed lots of the anyone but Boris team of MPs to pile in on him in the media,

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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby Rick Chasey » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:08 pm

awavey wrote:
rjsterry wrote:Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.


why was the leak clearly targeted to get rid of Darroch ? the guy was retiring in 6months anyway whoever ends up as PM has got far more pressing matters to deal with than worrying about the US, theyve just had a state visit,and the new PM gets to choose a successor more to their liking, so I dont see whats been gained by the leaker for dumping Darroch, except its allowed lots of the anyone but Boris team of MPs to pile in on him in the media,


Look at who reported the leak and work back from there

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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby rjsterry » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:47 pm

awavey wrote:
rjsterry wrote:Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.


why was the leak clearly targeted to get rid of Darroch ? the guy was retiring in 6months anyway whoever ends up as PM has got far more pressing matters to deal with than worrying about the US, theyve just had a state visit,and the new PM gets to choose a successor more to their liking, so I dont see whats been gained by the leaker for dumping Darroch, except its allowed lots of the anyone but Boris team of MPs to pile in on him in the media,


The leaks were published by Isabel Oakeshott, Brexit cheerleader and partner of Richard Tice, Brexit Party Chairman, who has called for the ambassador to be replaced by a pro-Brexit businessman. It's not much of a whodunit.
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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby Robert88 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 13:24 pm

rjsterry wrote:
awavey wrote:
rjsterry wrote:Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.


why was the leak clearly targeted to get rid of Darroch ? the guy was retiring in 6months anyway whoever ends up as PM has got far more pressing matters to deal with than worrying about the US, theyve just had a state visit,and the new PM gets to choose a successor more to their liking, so I dont see whats been gained by the leaker for dumping Darroch, except its allowed lots of the anyone but Boris team of MPs to pile in on him in the media,


The leaks were published by Isabel Oakeshott, Brexit cheerleader and partner of Richard Tice, Brexit Party Chairman, who has called for the ambassador to be replaced by a pro-Brexit businessman. It's not much of a whodunit.


Except that Isabel 'Dead Pig's Head' Oakeshott isn't likely to split on the insider who split on Darroch.

It is interesting to read up on her modus operandi, for examplewhen persuading Vicky Price to do the dirty on her ex, Chris Huhne.

I guess her trick is to find someone rather stupid with a big enough gripe to give her leverage.

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Re: BREXIT - Ich Bin Auslander

Postby rjsterry » Sun Jul 14, 2019 14:04 pm

Robert88 wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
awavey wrote:
rjsterry wrote:Clearly the leak and the way it was so targeted at getting rid of Darroch is the biggest problem. Ambassadors can't do their job if they have to assume private briefings could become public at any point and Darroch's successor will have the same problem until that investigation is concluded (I think we can safely assume he/she will feel the need to say something unflattering about his host at some point). We'll have to wait 30 years or for Darroch's memoires to find out how he ranked the different factors.


why was the leak clearly targeted to get rid of Darroch ? the guy was retiring in 6months anyway whoever ends up as PM has got far more pressing matters to deal with than worrying about the US, theyve just had a state visit,and the new PM gets to choose a successor more to their liking, so I dont see whats been gained by the leaker for dumping Darroch, except its allowed lots of the anyone but Boris team of MPs to pile in on him in the media,


The leaks were published by Isabel Oakeshott, Brexit cheerleader and partner of Richard Tice, Brexit Party Chairman, who has called for the ambassador to be replaced by a pro-Brexit businessman. It's not much of a whodunit.


Except that Isabel 'Dead Pig's Head' Oakeshott isn't likely to split on the insider who split on Darroch.

It is interesting to read up on her modus operandi, for examplewhen persuading Vicky Price to do the dirty on her ex, Chris Huhne.

I guess her trick is to find someone rather stupid with a big enough gripe to give her leverage.


If the reports are correct then the investigation has already identified the leaker.
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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby Robert88 » Sun Jul 14, 2019 17:27 pm

Were they official reports, leaked official reports or officially leaked official reports?

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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby thecycleclinic » Sun Jul 14, 2019 18:45 pm

What's the public I test in publishing the leaked documents from our former is amabassodor. What he thinks about trump is what many think about trump and has been published and discussed many times before. So the publishing of these cables is simply to damage u.k national I interests and sabotage the ambassador so a new one can be installed. If these documents are classed as state secrets which they should be the leaker and the publisher should be prosecuted fro breach of the official secrets act.

If the press publish leaks documents that show illegal activity then they have there get out of jail free card. They dont in this case and isabel oakeshott, the editor of the mail and the leaker should ho down. With all freedoms comes responsibility. There are too many that are playing fast and loose with our national interest for narrow political advantage. These people are the real traitors in my book. That's about as extreme as I get. But queue the politicians falling over themselves to say press freedom means they can publish government secrets with impunity. We all know why and that's bare faced corruption.
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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby TailWindHome » Sun Jul 14, 2019 19:15 pm

Not keen on the thread title edit.
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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby Imposter » Sun Jul 14, 2019 19:20 pm

TailWindHome wrote:Not keen on the thread title edit.


Me neither..

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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby darkhairedlord » Sun Jul 14, 2019 19:26 pm

Imposter wrote:
TailWindHome wrote:Not keen on the thread title edit.


Me neither..

If it said Ann widdecombe?

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Re: BREXIT - Gina Miller Rears Her Ugly Head Again

Postby Surrey Commuter » Sun Jul 14, 2019 19:34 pm

darkhairedlord wrote:
Imposter wrote:
TailWindHome wrote:Not keen on the thread title edit.


Me neither..

If it said Ann widdecombe?


Do any of them make any sense? Sometimes I wish the idiot would explain himself but then quickly realise my expectations are way too high.


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