Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

What bike and bike bits should you buy?
davetex
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby davetex » Sun Apr 28, 2019 19:25 pm

Can anyone recommend some 50mm ish carbon rims? Keen to build up a pair of deeper wheels for crits

DrHaggis
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby DrHaggis » Tue Apr 30, 2019 20:29 pm

So I'm fed up of wheels dying on me, either through freehub clogging, bearings wearing in a year (2000 miles, very entry level factory Giant wheels) or seized nipples in rear Aksium (3000 miles, one mild Scottish winter). This is on my do-it-all bike (N=1), so commuting, sportives, and club riding. I clean the bike between weekly and fortnightly, and definitely _not_ after every wet ride.

So if I spent £300 to £350 on some handbuilt wheels with brass nipples, should I expect better life (say > 3 years)? Or is my behaviour abusive enough that I should treat wheels as disposable? Similarly, how often should I service cup and cone bearings, given 300 miles/month on all weather in Edinburgh?

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Fri May 10, 2019 09:05 am

Thinking about trying some Triplet wheel building - does anyone have any 24 hole rims they can recommend? The important thing is that the spoke holes are fairly centred on the rim, or at the least minimally angled.

I see Halo have some designated 16/8 rims which I'm leaning towards although haven't used Halo before so not certain of the quality/strength?

A quick look in the garage this morning suggested the DT swiss r460 has pretty centred spoke holes so should be workable, i've got a DT rr511 on the way for another job so can have a look at that too, conversely the Kinlin XR31t has fairly pronounced spoke stepping so probably won't work.

Just for those that don't know - triplet lacing is where you have 16 spokes on the drive side of the wheel and 8 spokes on the other side - so 24 in total (a common rim drilling) and you can use 32 spoke hubs (again very common!). You can also use triplet lacing on disc brake front wheels - so more spokes on the rotor side.

The advantage is that it balances the tension in the spokes across the wheel - so on a conventional wheel non-drive spokes are often at 50% of the tension of the drive spokes- half the spokes doubles the tension in those spokes.

Campagnolo/Fulcrum in particular are known for their triplet lacing eg on the Zondas (although they use 21 spokes total, 14 drive side, 7 non drive - not so easy to do without manufacturing your own hubs and rims! - 24 spoke total is about the only practical count for the rest of us)

PBlakeney
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby PBlakeney » Fri May 10, 2019 09:10 am

DrHaggis wrote:So if I spent £300 to £350 on some handbuilt wheels with brass nipples, should I expect better life (say > 3 years)? Or is my behaviour abusive enough that I should treat wheels as disposable? Similarly, how often should I service cup and cone bearings, given 300 miles/month on all weather in Edinburgh?

I had a set of Ambrossio Excellence fitted to my Record hubs for my winter/commuting bike about 6 years ago. Still running fine. Not the fastest but very hard wearing. The hubs are now 8 years old. The original Mavics only lasted 2 years. Boy, do they bang when they pop! :shock:
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri May 10, 2019 09:18 am

TimothyW wrote:Thinking about trying some Triplet wheel building - does anyone have any 24 hole rims they can recommend? The important thing is that the spoke holes are fairly centred on the rim, or at the least minimally angled.

I see Halo have some designated 16/8 rims which I'm leaning towards although haven't used Halo before so not certain of the quality/strength?

A quick look in the garage this morning suggested the DT swiss r460 has pretty centred spoke holes so should be workable, i've got a DT rr511 on the way for another job so can have a look at that too, conversely the Kinlin XR31t has fairly pronounced spoke stepping so probably won't work.

Just for those that don't know - triplet lacing is where you have 16 spokes on the drive side of the wheel and 8 spokes on the other side - so 24 in total (a common rim drilling) and you can use 32 spoke hubs (again very common!). You can also use triplet lacing on disc brake front wheels - so more spokes on the rotor side.

The advantage is that it balances the tension in the spokes across the wheel - so on a conventional wheel non-drive spokes are often at 50% of the tension of the drive spokes- half the spokes doubles the tension in those spokes.

Campagnolo/Fulcrum in particular are known for their triplet lacing eg on the Zondas (although they use 21 spokes total, 14 drive side, 7 non drive - not so easy to do without manufacturing your own hubs and rims! - 24 spoke total is about the only practical count for the rest of us)


Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Fri May 10, 2019 09:44 am

ugo.santalucia wrote:Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...

This is true up to a point, but the last three wheels I've killed have had two with drive side rim hole failure, and one with drive side hub failure (a 36 spoke 105 hub).

Somewhat lower tension on drive side might make this at least slightly less likely to happen.

I certainly wouldn't take them touring (and most likely will only be doing disc fronts triplet, rather than rears).

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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Fri May 10, 2019 10:00 am

TimothyW wrote:
ugo.santalucia wrote:Whilst triplet lacing fixes tension balance issues, you are still left with a rim supported by 24 spokes and therefore a weaker wheel (in terms of load capacity) than one built with 28 or 32. At your size, I'd probably not bother...

This is true up to a point, but the last three wheels I've killed have had two with drive side rim hole failure, and one with drive side hub failure (a 36 spoke 105 hub).

Somewhat lower tension on drive side might make this at least slightly less likely to happen.

I certainly wouldn't take them touring (and most likely will only be doing disc fronts triplet, rather than rears).


It's a nice idea, but full of compromises... already having rims with perfectly central drilling (in the absence of specifically drilled rims for 2:1) is a compromise, as nipples exit angle won't be ideal...

DrHaggis
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby DrHaggis » Tue May 14, 2019 16:56 pm

OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex

PBlakeney
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby PBlakeney » Tue May 14, 2019 21:42 pm

DrHaggis wrote:OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex

The Mavics will be fine with 32s, if you use disc brakes. I am heavier FYI.
I really wouldn't recommend them for commuting in cruddy weather using rim brakes. Lesson learned.
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DrHaggis
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby DrHaggis » Wed May 15, 2019 18:09 pm

PBlakeney wrote:
DrHaggis wrote:OK, I've asked around, and been recommended Miche hubs coupled with the older 17mm Open Pros and 32/32 J-bend spokes. I'm having second thoughts, first about 32/32 spokes (I'm 72 kg and carry about a 5 kg backpack when commuting), second about settling for narrower rims than I have now, and finally about the money: it seems like a side-grade for 1/3 the price of the bike when new. Especially because I'm set on going disc brakes for my next commutraining bike. Maybe, just maybe, I'm better off letting the rear aksium die an untrue death and use C2W and the money saved to get a new bike (nex

The Mavics will be fine with 32s, if you use disc brakes. I am heavier FYI.
I really wouldn't recommend them for commuting in cruddy weather using rim brakes. Lesson learned.


I meant it the other way! Feeling 32/32 was way too much for my weight, and that 28/28 or 24/28 would have been fine! But thanks for the comments about the rims. Surprisingly, the rims in my Aksiums seem... fine?

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Wed May 15, 2019 19:12 pm

Yeah, 32 spoke open pros are overkill for you, especially on the front where they are overkill for anyone without front panniers.

It's just a good solid build though. You asked for reliability and this is what they are.

Anyhow, I'd suggest looking at a set of kinlin xr22t rims (Malcolm sells them as Borg 22, spa cycles also have builds among others), they are wider, tubeless compatible, similarly light, or perhaps dt Swiss r460 rims which have the same advantages.

At your weight I'd probably say 28 spoke rear and 20/24 front.

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drlodge
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby drlodge » Thu May 16, 2019 08:48 am

32H Open Pros are "old style" but solid wheels, the kind of thing Harry Rowland builds. As above, look at Malcolm's Kinlin rimmed wheels which are more "modern" with wider rims and more suited I'd say to road bikes of today. 28 rear with 20/24 front is plenty if built properly with well chosen components.
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thecycleclinic
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Fri Jun 14, 2019 13:54 pm

TimothyW. I have a 24H triplet hub now. It seems fine. To get a proper triplet hub with the correct geometry I have had to get one made. The rim that seems to work is the Kinlin XR26RT. Even though it centre drilled with Sapim HM nipple washer the spoke dont bend at the nipple any more than with a conventional hub. I think this is the only off the shelf rim that actually works for 2:1 lacing. The 31Rt might be good too but my gut tell me there will be more of a bend. Since I build 24 spoke wheels have no issues, 24 spokes does seem to be enough with the right rim/hub/spoke combination.

The 2:1 hub I have, the XR26T rim does need a stiff spoke like a sapim force or CX sprint or CX force for it to be reliable but reliable it seems to be. tension balance is 93% with the offset rim and 17.4mm/49mm flange spacing.
2:1 lacing does not build a superior wheel unless the hub geometry is like above. Using a conventional 32H hub as many use your rear wheel is less stiff (laterally) and the rim is more easily twisted than if conventional 1:1 lacing is used with a 24H hub.

2:1 lacing is not something to be bodged. done right it actually meean higher radial stiffness, slightly higher lateral stiffness and it does seem to create a wheel that feels good. It turns out that tension balance is related to radial stiffness. There a PHD on this now. light bedtime reading. Bodge it and you get an inferior wheel and thats why it has a bad rep.
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TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Fri Jun 14, 2019 14:33 pm

Funnily enough I'd come to the same conclusion about the XR26 - bought one from superstar and noticed that the spoke holes were very central, although that was an offset rim so not one you'd triplet lace - good to know the symmetric ones are similar.

It's a bit redundant though because Halo sell a range of rebranded Kinlin rims with 16/8 drilling anyway - eg the Devaura appears to be the XR31T - https://www.tredz.co.uk/.Halo-Devaura-7 ... 102069.htm

Anyhow, I saw that they were selling some Halo Mercury rims 16/8 for not a lot and grabbed a couple so have built up a wheel cheap to see how it goes (with novatec hub and alpine 3 spokes) - so far so good after 100 miles or so, early days yet obviously.

Do you have a picture/can you describe a bit more how the triplet hub is better?

Obviously in an ideal world the surplus holes wouldn't be there on the non drive side, but with the spokes crossed it built up easily enough and no obvious issues in use.

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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 09:39 am

I lace 2:1 with the asymmetric rims so your wrong there. If you have a proper 2:1 hub you use an asymmetric rim. Campagnolo understand this trick as well.

I said to use the xt26rt which is the asymmetric rim. Details.

TimothyW with all respect your first line means you dont understand 2:1 lacing. I gave the reason why with the flange spacing. If you missed that then you dont get how flange spacing influence wheel dynamics/how or responds to load or are making generalisations that dont dont hold true.

The halo rim would not suit my hub. Proper 2:1 use a hub like mine need a asymmetric rim. You cannot drill the asymmetric rim for 16/8 lacing so deep asymmetric rims are out. You have to then use a centre drilled rim that does not cause bends at the nipple.. The bitex hub may have 2:1 drilling but does not have 2:1 geometry and therefore builds an laterally less stiff wheel than the standard hub. Utterly pointless.

So the rim I am using is the correct one.

There is plenty of info on my site. Use your Google foo.

You have used a 32h hub for 2:1 lacing while that can work there is a difference between building an optimal wheel and one that just works well enough. You may have built one that works well enough but is not optimal. Therefore you dont actually know what 2:1 lacing can really do. In my view you would have a superior wheel with a 24h hub laced conventionally compared to what you have built. The mistake people make is maximise tension balance at the expense of lateral stifness. TimothyW you have fallen into that trap although you may never realise as you may never get a spoke failure.
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ugo.santalucia
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby ugo.santalucia » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:56 am

2:1 lacing seems the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

I used to build 24 H and 28 H rear wheels that didn't give users any problem, spoke life was always well in excess of rim life and they did hold true indefinitely, so why exactly we need to go through all that hassle I am not sure....

Is it a case of search for perfection when perfection is not required?

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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Sat Jun 15, 2019 20:06 pm

It does solve some problems ugo. While I can build reliable 24 spoke wheels with conventional hub I have to over build them with a deep rim and heavy spokes to ensure the wheel is latterally and radially stiff enough that once a tubeless tyre is fitted there is enough spoke tension so high loads cant slacken spokes.

With 2:1 lacing the tensions are more balanced so the rim used does not have to so tank like to still have a wheel that stable when placed under load.
You can also end up with a latterally stiffer wheel but a few % as the NDS flange is pushed far out to the left. The one I have just built with a 55mm deep rim has tensions 1275N DS and 980N NDS using a symmetric rim.
With the asymmetric kinlin XR26T tension are 1275N DS and 1180N NDS. I leave the tension that high because once a tubeless tyre is fitted the tension drop quite a bit.

The wheel also just feel right.

Also the tension imblance on a rim actually decreases radial stiffnes (an lateral stiffness by a smaller ammount) so 2:1 lacing actually improves the whee. There is a relationship between tenion and radial/lateral stiffness but the tension imblance is more important. In additon the tension imbalance is one reason why I think rims crack so reduceing that could reduce that risk.

There is a thesis wirtten by a chap called Matt Ford that goes into all of this in great detail. The conclusions do explain why 2:1 lacing works. I always knew it did but could never really explain why.

Still there nothing wrong with conventional 1:1 lacing.
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Sun Jun 16, 2019 18:14 pm

http://www.thecycleclinic.co.uk -wheel building and other stuff.

TimothyW
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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby TimothyW » Mon Jun 17, 2019 09:36 am

Malcolm, so basically your argument is that triplet lacing should only be done with hubs that push the non-drive flange out considerably wider than usual?

Which in turn drops the non drive tension further thus favouring the use of an offset rim against a symmetrical one. (Indeed, perhaps requiring it with centre drilled rims to avoid extreme nipple angle).

My google-fu is fine, but your blog post here doesn't use the word triplet anywhere (or diametric for that matter, which is how Token refer to their wheels using the 2:1/triplet lacing pattern) - https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/blogs/news ... -1-testing - although it does seem to explain your thinking.

thecycleclinic wrote:The halo rim would not suit my hub. Proper 2:1 use a hub like mine need a asymmetric rim. You cannot drill the asymmetric rim for 16/8 lacing so deep asymmetric rims are out. You have to then use a centre drilled rim that does not cause bends at the nipple..


You might want to reread what you are saying here because it appears to be nonsense - you are saying that a (Halo) rim with angled drilling is going to be less suitable for a 2:1 build than one with center drilled holes? Nope. If the nipples can sit correctly with center drilled holes, they will be even better with ones at an angle, even after you factor in 3mm of offset (which only affects bracing angle by perhaps half a degree in any case).

Further, I'd say that 'needing' an asymmetric rim is rather strong when you're still getting non drive spokes at 80% of drive tension on a symmetric rim with your hubs. You perhaps need an offset rim with centre drilled spoke holes, but that's another argument.

thecycleclinic wrote:The bitex hub may have 2:1 drilling but does not have 2:1 geometry and therefore builds an laterally less stiff wheel than the standard hub. Utterly pointless.

Well, perhaps not pointless if the somewhat reduced drive side tension leads to a reduced chance of spoke bed failure on the rim, something you specifically refer to in your blog post. This is of interest to me as I've had to discard two kinlin builds due to their rim's failing on the drive side spoke holes.

thecycleclinic wrote:You have used a 32h hub for 2:1 lacing while that can work there is a difference between building an optimal wheel and one that just works well enough. You may have built one that works well enough but is not optimal. Therefore you dont actually know what 2:1 lacing can really do. In my view you would have a superior wheel with a 24h hub laced conventionally compared to what you have built. The mistake people make is maximise tension balance at the expense of lateral stifness. TimothyW you have fallen into that trap although you may never realise as you may never get a spoke failure.


Time will tell. One big advantage that I have (in the most literal terms) is that I am a serial killer of wheels. This means that I can build a selection of wheels, and if I use them on the commute long enough then they will fail. How long that takes, and how they fail, is interesting to me (and gives me an excuse to build more wheels, which I enjoy...)

I've had all sorts this year - rim failure, hub flange failure on a 36 spoke build, and more traditional repeated drive side spoke failure.

This 2:1 build is basically a side project alongside a more conventional rebuild with a DT rr511 replacing a kinlin, and a disc wheel rebuilt with alpine 3 spokes in place of comps... and a couple of others I won't even get into.

The correct link for that thesis is here, incidentally, you put an extra l on the end:
https://github.com/dashdotrobot/phd-the ... s_v1.0.pdf

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Re: Handbuilt wheels... the big thread

Postby thecycleclinic » Mon Jun 17, 2019 23:41 pm

Triplet bunches the spokes into groups of 3 like g3 lacing. 2:1 is what you and I have done .

That's how i am defining it .

Asymmetric rim better defines the type of rim than offset. Offset will refer to the spoke offset from the centre. For kinlin that's 3mm. With the halo 16/8 rim tension balance would be 73%. So given the xr26rt rim allows the spokes to enter the nipples straight then this is the right rim. The xr31rt or rt cannot be made to work as well. I have talked to kinlin about this. For my hub it's the wrong rim. I have tried.
The xr26rt rim is asymmetric with a 3mm offset and central.

Yes 2:1 needs the nds flange pushed out otherwise your lateral wheel stiffnes is lower. More than 50% of the stiffness imparted by the spokes comes from the nds due to the larger bracing angle. Cut the number of nds spokes though and you have a problem. With std hub geometry and 2:1 lacing brake rub is likely to be more of an issue.

Campag understand this. The tipping is around 46mm from centre. That's were with 2:1 lacing you get the same lateral stiffness as you would with say a shimano dura ace 9000 hub.
However an asymmetric rim is required then to equalise spoke tensions. My hub pushes the flange out further to 49mm but with a 3mm asymmetric rim you get a 93% tension balance. With a symmetric rim you get 73% which is good enough bit if you can do better then why not. Campagnolo is asymmetric rims in there wheels because there hubs have the nds flange 45 or 46mm from centre. I think campagnolo have done the same sums I have.

My experience tells me improving tension balance at the expense of lateral stiffness is a mistake. You can trade the two to some extend and be fine. Problems start when you relentlessly focus on one forgetting about the other.

My blog post refer to the cause of rim failure. It's not tension per say but tension imbalance. Reducing the tension is not actually what you should do with 2:1 lacing. The tension you use in a wheel actually depends on the buckling tension of the rim. There is no gain to dropping the tension if the tension is already optimal based on the rims buckling tension. The more even tension tension balance should prevent rim failures.
Your rim failures may be the result of over tensioning. that is sometimes done by some for heavier rider or for wheel killers. It is also the wrong approach. The fact you have had a hub flange failure indicates this. If your getting spoke failures the solution is not more tension but a stiffer wheel to reduces the length changes the spoke experience when loaded.

Rear wheel tension for modern rims should be around 1200N DS whether conventionally or 2:1 laced.

Campagnolo, fulcrum and shimano all use 2:1 lacing with hub geometries similar to mine. I have not reinvented the wheel, neither have these other brands it well worn physics.
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