If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

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If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Leave with no deal
12
9%
Leave only with a deal (eg May's deal or thereabouts)
4
3%
Remain in the EU
113
88%
 
Total votes: 129

Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:14 am

Rolf F wrote:Well that's it (though a shame we aren't allowed to learn from this eg by another referendum). Ultimately Cameron is responsible for this. I hope he realises it.

All the shenanigans are enough to put anyone off politics for life ...

Perhaps Politicians should be made to present opinions and ideas as such - and not as though they are fact.

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Ben6899
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:18 am

Slowbike wrote:
Rolf F wrote:Well that's it (though a shame we aren't allowed to learn from this eg by another referendum). Ultimately Cameron is responsible for this. I hope he realises it.

All the shenanigans are enough to put anyone off politics for life ...

Perhaps Politicians should be made to present opinions and ideas as such - and not as though they are fact.


There's an onus on the electorate to do a bit of research and self-thinking as well.
Ben

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bompington
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby bompington » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:28 am

I have seen a lot written, and I think I (at least half) understand it, about the quite logical processes by which a vote which was allegedly a mix of "don't really want to leave, but let's give the EU a really big scare" and "leave but stay pretty close" had morphed into hard Brexit at all costs.
But I still find it scary and depressing.

What next? Declare war on Brussels? Shoot the Remoaners?

Anyway, can anyone find any poll evidence for how many people thought in 2016 that leaving meant no deal? (Or wanted no deal).
We already know that pretty much everyone leading the leave campaign didn't. Or at least claimed they didn't.

Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:31 am

Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
Rolf F wrote:Well that's it (though a shame we aren't allowed to learn from this eg by another referendum). Ultimately Cameron is responsible for this. I hope he realises it.

All the shenanigans are enough to put anyone off politics for life ...

Perhaps Politicians should be made to present opinions and ideas as such - and not as though they are fact.


There's an onus on the electorate to do a bit of research and self-thinking as well.

The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.

IIRC - the general consensus was that Remain would comfortably win the referendum.
There are elements of the way the UK dealt with the EU that I didn't/don't agree with - that's from experience within different sports/activities. It certainly wasn't any reason that NF was shouting leave that influenced my vote.
I certainly didn't think the government would make a dogs dinner out of the result - it wasn't even a binding referendum.

Surrey Commuter
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Surrey Commuter » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:44 am

bompington wrote:I have seen a lot written, and I think I (at least half) understand it, about the quite logical processes by which a vote which was allegedly a mix of "don't really want to leave, but let's give the EU a really big scare" and "leave but stay pretty close" had morphed into hard Brexit at all costs.
But I still find it scary and depressing.

What next? Declare war on Brussels? Shoot the Remoaners?

Anyway, can anyone find any poll evidence for how many people thought in 2016 that leaving meant no deal? (Or wanted no deal).
We already know that pretty much everyone leading the leave campaign didn't. Or at least claimed they didn't.


I am convinced there are some very clever people behind Leave. From 24th june they have driven an uncompromising agenda to get us to the brink of no-deal, with Boris as there latest puppet. The opposition has been a mixture of disarray and wanting to believe compromise is possible, I now think they know compromise is not possible as even if we leave with no-deal they will keep pushing. With the expulsions and resignations the tory party feels on the verge of a split, who gets to keep teh brand will be interesting.

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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Surrey Commuter » Mon Sep 09, 2019 11:47 am

Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
Rolf F wrote:Well that's it (though a shame we aren't allowed to learn from this eg by another referendum). Ultimately Cameron is responsible for this. I hope he realises it.

All the shenanigans are enough to put anyone off politics for life ...

Perhaps Politicians should be made to present opinions and ideas as such - and not as though they are fact.


There's an onus on the electorate to do a bit of research and self-thinking as well.

The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.

IIRC - the general consensus was that Remain would comfortably win the referendum.
There are elements of the way the UK dealt with the EU that I didn't/don't agree with - that's from experience within different sports/activities. It certainly wasn't any reason that NF was shouting leave that influenced my vote.
I certainly didn't think the government would make a dogs dinner out of the result - it wasn't even a binding referendum.


without going into old ground (too much) there is a reason why nobody has left the EU and people are queueing up to leap through hoops to join. There is also a reason why Leave could not find one expert to say it was a good idea to leave, just think the JC/McDonnell has a raft of experts supporting their economic policies. Lastly you should have been aware enough to know that our politicians are 3rd raters in no way capable to extracting us painlessly from the EU.

Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 13:17 pm

Surrey Commuter wrote:without going into old ground (too much) there is a reason why nobody has left the EU and people are queueing up to leap through hoops to join.

Those queuing up to join were not in the prominent position that the UK was in.
Surrey Commuter wrote:There is also a reason why Leave could not find one expert to say it was a good idea to leave, just think the JC/McDonnell has a raft of experts supporting their economic policies.
It's the art of the potential - nobody could say it WILL be xyz because nobody had done it before.
Surrey Commuter wrote:Lastly you should have been aware enough to know that our politicians are 3rd raters in no way capable to extracting us painlessly from the EU.
There's a huge jump between painlessly and the excruciating pain we seem to be getting ourselves into.
AFAIR - Remain never said "think of the worst possible exit that you can think of and double it" - nor did Leave.

My reasons for voting the way I did have not changed - but the way I should've voted has. I'm not into politics in any way shape or form - I despise the way that some play games with other peoples lives - give it straight up and play openly and fairly.

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Robert88
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Robert88 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 13:46 pm

Slowbike wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:without going into old ground (too much) there is a reason why nobody has left the EU and people are queueing up to leap through hoops to join.

Those queuing up to join were not in the prominent position that the UK was in.
......


If you are referring to our position in the late 60s and early 70s then I would say we were by no means in a prominent position. We were desperate to find export markets to replace the captive markets of the empire, vanished when countries gained independence and could escape from the restrictions imposed by the UK. Far more draconian restrictions than we impose on ourselves as EU members and ones that they will never accept again.

It's interesting to see criticism of Trump's attempt to redress the trade imbalance between the USA and China. He wants to do so by making China export less to the USA and also to buy US produced goods. It can't possibly work simply because the USA cannot produce goods in sufficient volume or at a price the Chinese can afford. US workers are less hard working and demand better conditions than Chinese workers.

The idea that the UK can tread the same path is completely illusory.

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Ben6899
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:27 pm

Slowbike wrote:The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.


It's called critical thinking.
Ben

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Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:31 pm

Robert88 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
Surrey Commuter wrote:without going into old ground (too much) there is a reason why nobody has left the EU and people are queueing up to leap through hoops to join.

Those queuing up to join were not in the prominent position that the UK was in.
......


If you are referring to our position in the late 60s and early 70s then I would say we were by no means in a prominent position.
No - we are/were in a prominent position within the EU - being a net contributor and one of the few top members. There's nobody waiting to join that would jump into the same/similar position that the UK is in now.

Robert88 wrote: We were desperate to find export markets to replace the captive markets of the empire, vanished when countries gained independence and could escape from the restrictions imposed by the UK. Far more draconian restrictions than we impose on ourselves as EU members and ones that they will never accept again.
I never did like history ... ;)

Robert88 wrote:It's interesting to see criticism of Trump's attempt to redress the trade imbalance between the USA and China. He wants to do so by making China export less to the USA and also to buy US produced goods. It can't possibly work simply because the USA cannot produce goods in sufficient volume or at a price the Chinese can afford. US workers are less hard working and demand better conditions than Chinese workers.

The idea that the UK can tread the same path is completely illusory.

At some point, the price for chinese/cheap goods will rise beyond what is acceptable and capable of being made elsewhere - anyone sensible who is importing has already got in place, or plans to have in place - alternative manufacturers where the costs can be kept down - with the way the GBP is going - that might just be the UK soon!

Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:32 pm

Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.


It's called critical thinking.


I can't help but think you're being a little too critical?

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bompington
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby bompington » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:33 pm

Slowbike wrote:The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust

You are basically falling for the particular application of the postmodernist line being pushed by the likes of Trump and Putin: they know perfectly well that they're pushing a load of guff, they don't expect you to believe it either, but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.

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Ben6899
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:35 pm

Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:The majority of the research material is based on peoples opinion - and very little fact - because nobody has left the EU before - so there could be no fact - just opinion. So who's opinion do you trust? Yours? I don't know you. Newspapers? Well, they're biased towards whichever political stance they want to take.
In short, afaik, there isn't any one source you can implicitly trust.


It's called critical thinking.


I can't help but think you're being a little too critical?


You seemed to be asking how you were supposed to make the correct decision when ticking the ballot paper.

If we take it as a given that, by voting to Remain, I made the correct decision (fair for this discussion, I think - you've said you voted the incorrectly and would change your vote if given the chance)... then how did I - and others - make the correct decision when all the information we had to hand was the same as what you had?

But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.
Ben

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Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:40 pm

bompington wrote:but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.

pretty much works ..

dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...

Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:43 pm

Ben6899 wrote:But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.

Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?

to err is human; to forgive, divine ...

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Ben6899
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:43 pm

Slowbike wrote:
bompington wrote:but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.

pretty much works ..

dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...


Openness and honesty is certainly the best way.
Ben

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Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:47 pm

Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
bompington wrote:but the aim is more to cause confusion, chaos, and a lack of trust in... well, more or less everything.

pretty much works ..

dammed if you do, dammed if you don't.

I've been open and honest about which way I voted and why - I'm not an extremist and I believe I did carefully consider my vote before placing it. In hindsight I should've voted the other way. I'm not going to apologise as I did what I felt was right at the time.
In other things I've done wrong - I bought the wrong raffle ticket, filled up with fuel at the wrong petrol station and ride with the wrong size tyres on my bike - oh, and at the wrong pressure too ... according to someone.
I'm trying to teach my son the virtues I think are important in life - honesty is top of list. So he'll probably be as good as me at Politics too ...


Openness and honesty is certainly the best way.

Unfortunately, it leads to the (often mis)understanding that others behave the same ...

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Ben6899
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Ben6899 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:51 pm

Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.

Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?


I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.
Ben

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Slowbike
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Slowbike » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:57 pm

Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.

Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?


I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.


Can I remind you that the result wasn't legally binding and was a simple "In/Out" question - nothing about the way the government or parliament went about interpreting the result.

IIRC, the majority of MPs wanted to remain - yet voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 without first setting out what it was they wanted to achieve. A knee-jerk reaction when a more considered approach was required.

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Pross
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Re: If this was a 2nd referendum, which way would you vote?

Postby Pross » Mon Sep 09, 2019 14:59 pm

Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:
Slowbike wrote:
Ben6899 wrote:But you're right. I'll be unapologetically critical of anyone who voted to Leave the EU. It's unforgivable.

Perhaps you could be a little more gentlemanly about it?


I honestly don't see why I should be. People voting in a manner to "give the system a wake up call" or similar... well they've created a proper shitstorm.


Can I remind you that the result wasn't legally binding and was a simple "In/Out" question - nothing about the way the government or parliament went about interpreting the result.

IIRC, the majority of MPs wanted to remain - yet voted overwhelmingly to invoke A50 without first setting out what it was they wanted to achieve. A knee-jerk reaction when a more considered approach was required.


Would you like to remind all those that shout 'will of the people' that this is the case?


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