May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

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Robert88
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Robert88 » Mon May 27, 2019 16:19 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
Robert88 wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Robert88 wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
orraloon wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists

Hmmm...looks like I may need to goose step round to your house with a few chums in brown shirts
and dispel a few myths.

Ah hah. The truth is coming out.

You are on ze list also, Herr Looney :)

We have have learnt well from our esteemed European partners.


The Tory party is far too incompetent and self-serving to be a proper fascist organisation. Instead they are a collection of individual fascists who couldn't even organise a night of the long knives in a butchers shop.

In a way you're right, as many of our European partners did actually have a real fascist party or far right dictatorship in power.

Claiming that the Tories are fascist is just lazy leftiebollox or ignorance.


Oops, did I just sink your battleship. Quel dommage..

Err, no :) I didn't even know there was a battleship involved. But if youre going to go for lazy stereotyping, expect to get called out occasionally.


資本主義的走狗

john80
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby john80 » Tue May 28, 2019 14:01 pm

Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.

john80
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby john80 » Tue May 28, 2019 14:02 pm

This is all before we look up the definition of facism.

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Rolf F
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Rolf F » Tue May 28, 2019 14:20 pm

john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.
Faster than a tent.......

john80
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby john80 » Tue May 28, 2019 16:51 pm

Rolf F wrote:
john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.


Yeah I am sure that first generation graduate from a modest background considers the act of getting educated and working hard makes him from a privileged sector of society. Universal debt regardless of background really assisted those not from families where the debt could just be paid off by the parents and was irrelevant.

We have had 50 years of removing industry from the economy as if increasing productivity and providing well paid jobs was somehow a bad idea. It was a much better idea to buy in all these services for some bizarre reasoning.

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Surrey Commuter » Tue May 28, 2019 18:22 pm

john80 wrote:
Rolf F wrote:
john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.


Yeah I am sure that first generation graduate from a modest background considers the act of getting educated and working hard makes him from a privileged sector of society. Universal debt regardless of background really assisted those not from families where the debt could just be paid off by the parents and was irrelevant.

We have had 50 years of removing industry from the economy as if increasing productivity and providing well paid jobs was somehow a bad idea. It was a much better idea to buy in all these services for some bizarre reasoning.


Have you thought this through?

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rjsterry
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby rjsterry » Tue May 28, 2019 18:39 pm

john80 wrote:
Rolf F wrote:
john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.


Yeah I am sure that first generation graduate from a modest background considers the act of getting educated and working hard makes him from a privileged sector of society. Universal debt regardless of background really assisted those not from families where the debt could just be paid off by the parents and was irrelevant.

We have had 50 years of removing industry from the economy as if increasing productivity and providing well paid jobs was somehow a bad idea. It was a much better idea to buy in all these services for some bizarre reasoning.


If as an engineering graduate you can make a decent living then that does put you at an advantage. If for whatever reason that degree doesn't lead to a higher income then you don't have to repay the debt. Point is, free university places were a massive give away to a majority of students, who were from that privileged sector of society where it was just expected.
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Jez mon
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Jez mon » Tue May 28, 2019 18:49 pm

john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.



What about the Tory twats who tripled the fees?
You live and learn. At any rate, you live

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Rick Chasey
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Rick Chasey » Tue May 28, 2019 19:06 pm

It’s a bit like voters who punished labour for their lack of banking regulation by voting Tory, who the previous 10 years lambasted labour for their heavy handed, profit stifling, regulation.

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Robert88
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Robert88 » Wed May 29, 2019 05:49 am

rjsterry wrote:
john80 wrote:
Rolf F wrote:
john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.


Yeah I am sure that first generation graduate from a modest background considers the act of getting educated and working hard makes him from a privileged sector of society. Universal debt regardless of background really assisted those not from families where the debt could just be paid off by the parents and was irrelevant.

We have had 50 years of removing industry from the economy as if increasing productivity and providing well paid jobs was somehow a bad idea. It was a much better idea to buy in all these services for some bizarre reasoning.


If as an engineering graduate you can make a decent living then that does put you at an advantage. If for whatever reason that degree doesn't lead to a higher income then you don't have to repay the debt. Point is, free university places were a massive give away to a majority of students, who were from that privileged sector of society where it was just expected.


One of the reasons Britain lost its ascendancy in the late years of the 19th century and ever after was the way in which its rivals educated and trained their populations. Conservative Britain was was wary of allowing the lower orders an education lest it led to discontent. They certainly had a point as in Germany there had been a revolt in 1848 which had to be crushed. Many educated Germans emigrated, some to the UK where they were very successful, starting businesses that thrived and brought prosperity. A great number of those and other businesses lost their investment in the 60s, 70s and 80s. They were absorbed by foreign buyers or asset stripped. The rise of banking and retail followed.

Today the UK is woefully short of significantly large companies that are at the leading edge of modern science and technology. We are a nation of relatively poorly educated consumers and borrowers, very ill-equipped to make our way in a post-Brexit role.

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby john80 » Wed May 29, 2019 07:13 am

So we have some advocates of the increase in university places as some sort of benefit to the less well off. Some saying it's a give away to the more well off. The point that you don't have to pay it back if you don't earn as much.

Remember grants for poorer but talented students. Seems like maybe the original system was not so bad for the UK as I am not seeing the competitive advantage we have gained from the massive growth in university education. Thankfully I am not a graduate of the 9k per year generation paying additional tax on my higher rate tax to fund the growth in the university sector.

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Rolf F
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Rolf F » Wed May 29, 2019 07:22 am

rjsterry wrote:
john80 wrote:
Rolf F wrote:
john80 wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
SurferCyclist wrote:
Matthewfalle wrote:
Pross wrote: whoever wins is unlikely to survive long and it will hopefully kill their career permanently.


A last hoorah for a Henry?

#fascistTories


Saying Tories are facists is like saying Labour supporters are Marxist. Some are, not all.


nope. they all are. not one iota of care for the greater good in any of their bodies

#fascists


I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt. I was down the local sailing club teaching kids how to sail at the weekend. Didn't even get paid. I have just given you one example of a historically Tory voter doing something for the greater good of society and a whole party doing something that was definitely bad for society. But then this is the internet where the use of the word "all" is routinely used incorrectly.


So the consequence of your anger regarding the act of increasing the debt on a broadly/commonly privileged sector of society is to shift from left wing to right wing?

This summarises why politics is so difficult now. It's Turkeys voting for Christmas. Once you identify yourself as someone who will vote against your own best interests (feel free to analogise to Brexit) you are sending a message to those in power that there is absolutely no point in them considering your needs; even if they do give you what you want you'll still vote against them. There should be a special category in the Darwin awards for this.


Yeah I am sure that first generation graduate from a modest background considers the act of getting educated and working hard makes him from a privileged sector of society. Universal debt regardless of background really assisted those not from families where the debt could just be paid off by the parents and was irrelevant.

We have had 50 years of removing industry from the economy as if increasing productivity and providing well paid jobs was somehow a bad idea. It was a much better idea to buy in all these services for some bizarre reasoning.


If as an engineering graduate you can make a decent living then that does put you at an advantage. If for whatever reason that degree doesn't lead to a higher income then you don't have to repay the debt. Point is, free university places were a massive give away to a majority of students, who were from that privileged sector of society where it was just expected.


Exactly. Ultimately, it was the decision to massively increase the number of University students that made loans essential (though I suspect they would have replaced the grant system anyway). There's a good chance that your first generation graduate from a modest background wouldn't have had the chance to get a degree at all thirty years ago. Whether the current situation is a genuine improvement or not on how things used to be depends on how many graduates are getting graduate level jobs but a loan that you only pay off if you get a graduate level wage doesn't seem that bad a solution. Even Martin Lewis seems to think that!

But yes, I'd say anyone with an engineering degree, no matter how indebted as a result of it, is privileged. Go to a shopping centre in a crap part of town and see how many engineering graduates you'll find hanging around outside McDonalds. They are privileged whether they think so or not.

Mind you, I am still glad I didn't have to incur those debts during my degree. I might have had to choose a more lucrative subject (such as engineering!).
Faster than a tent.......

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Rick Chasey
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Rick Chasey » Wed May 29, 2019 07:59 am

Grads complaining their degree has been devalued by too many others doing degrees is a bit like people in a traffic jam complaining too many people drive their car.

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby bompington » Wed May 29, 2019 08:40 am

Robert88 wrote:One of the reasons Britain lost its ascendancy in the late years of the 19th century and ever after was the way in which its rivals educated and trained their populations. Conservative Britain was was wary of allowing the lower orders an education lest it led to discontent. They certainly had a point as in Germany there had been a revolt in 1848 which had to be crushed. Many educated Germans emigrated, some to the UK where they were very successful, starting businesses that thrived and brought prosperity. A great number of those and other businesses lost their investment in the 60s, 70s and 80s. They were absorbed by foreign buyers or asset stripped. The rise of banking and retail followed.

Today the UK is woefully short of significantly large companies that are at the leading edge of modern science and technology. We are a nation of relatively poorly educated consumers and borrowers, very ill-equipped to make our way in a post-Brexit role.

Bunch of cliches, all of which are either overstated, distorted or simply untrue.

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby KingstonGraham » Wed May 29, 2019 08:51 am

john80 wrote:I have voted Tory since those Labour twats chose to introduce tuition fees and saddle intelligent engineers such as myself with debt.


That's a joke, right?
and then the next thing you know

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rjsterry
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby rjsterry » Wed May 29, 2019 09:20 am

john80 wrote:So we have some advocates of the increase in university places as some sort of benefit to the less well off. Some saying it's a give away to the more well off. The point that you don't have to pay it back if you don't earn as much.


No, I said that the old system of free places for all disproportionately benefitted the well off, who were the principal users of the system and could have afforded to contribute. Maintenance grants are a separate issue again.
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby TheBigBean » Wed May 29, 2019 11:34 am

rjsterry wrote:
No, I said that the old system of free places for all disproportionately benefitted the well off, who were the principal users of the system and could have afforded to contribute.


Most 18 year olds are not that wealthy. If parents of some 18 year olds wish to give money to their children then make it taxable income. Then treat all 18 year olds the same, and offer them the privilege of some form of training whether that be a university place or an apprenticeship, and only do this when they have met entry standards (e.g. Two Es at A-Level is not enough for the state to fund a degree)

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby mamil314 » Wed May 29, 2019 11:47 am

It could be said that second Uni fee tripling resulted in Brexit. Nick Clegg, of the big EU supporters LibDems, was campaigning through unis before election and hinting at abolishing the 3k payment. Then they flipped a neat 180 degrees after joining Tories to get majority over Labour. That majority, however was small and Cameron had to rely on eurosceptics and gave them the referendum. Of course disgruntled folks feel betrayed to this day and didn't turn up to vote. And since most of them won't touch Corbyn's setup with a pole, it's a bit grim out there.

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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby rjsterry » Wed May 29, 2019 12:24 pm

TheBigBean wrote:
rjsterry wrote:
No, I said that the old system of free places for all disproportionately benefitted the well off, who were the principal users of the system and could have afforded to contribute.


Most 18 year olds are not that wealthy. If parents of some 18 year olds wish to give money to their children then make it taxable income. Then treat all 18 year olds the same, and offer them the privilege of some form of training whether that be a university place or an apprenticeship, and only do this when they have met entry standards (e.g. Two Es at A-Level is not enough for the state to fund a degree)


Yes, clearly we are talking about parents' wealth. My point was that the introduction of fees and raising of those fees hasn't discouraged students from less wealthy backgrounds; it would appear to be the opposite.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... s-students

Interesting idea on taxing income received from parents, but given the general outrage at inheritance tax, I can't see that coming to pass.
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Stevo 666
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Re: May has gone - ding dong the utter, utter, total failure of a prime minister is gone

Postby Stevo 666 » Wed May 29, 2019 12:32 pm

bompington wrote:
Robert88 wrote:One of the reasons Britain lost its ascendancy in the late years of the 19th century and ever after was the way in which its rivals educated and trained their populations. Conservative Britain was was wary of allowing the lower orders an education lest it led to discontent. They certainly had a point as in Germany there had been a revolt in 1848 which had to be crushed. Many educated Germans emigrated, some to the UK where they were very successful, starting businesses that thrived and brought prosperity. A great number of those and other businesses lost their investment in the 60s, 70s and 80s. They were absorbed by foreign buyers or asset stripped. The rise of banking and retail followed.

Today the UK is woefully short of significantly large companies that are at the leading edge of modern science and technology. We are a nation of relatively poorly educated consumers and borrowers, very ill-equipped to make our way in a post-Brexit role.

Bunch of cliches, all of which are either overstated, distorted or simply untrue.

+1

Also I'd like to see a some specific examples from Robert of the sort of large companies in those sectors that he thinks we are 'short of'.
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