Join the Labour Party and save your country!

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Stevo 666
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Sun Sep 08, 2019 19:43 pm

Surrey Commuter wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote::lol:

Image


Take me home Jeremy Corbyn tree road

Do I win a prize?

Close, but no cigar.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rolf F » Mon Sep 09, 2019 08:09 am

Stevo 666 wrote::lol:

Image


Not really worth that degree of hilarity smiley face simply because you can just substitute any face in there and for all anyone knows it might already be a substitution. Do find insulting the Corbster funny but try to do so via images that are actually witty.

SC did better than me. I thought it was "Take me summer house Jezza ash lane" which makes no sense to me at all.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 09, 2019 08:11 am

I have no idea what the song is.

But I guess it took attention away from me highlighting McDonnell’s desire to ban City bonuses so whatever.

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby rjsterry » Mon Sep 09, 2019 08:51 am

Rick Chasey wrote:I have no idea what the song is.

But I guess it took attention away from me highlighting McDonnell’s desire to ban City bonuses so whatever.


Presumably this will just push the money back to salaries as you suggested. I don't see this making much of a dent in levels of inequality. The numbers of people on that kind of money are too small.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Shirley Basso » Mon Sep 09, 2019 08:56 am

Rick Chasey wrote:I have no idea what the song is.

But I guess it took attention away from me highlighting McDonnell’s desire to ban City bonuses so whatever.


Absolutely impossible to achieve.

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Stevo 666
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:00 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:I have no idea what the song is.

But I guess it took attention away from me highlighting McDonnell’s desire to ban City bonuses so whatever.

Not done deliberately Rick, although as you and RJS have already mentioned, it is likely to just pump up base pay to compensate, which then makes it harder for the banks to manage their payroll cost base going forward.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:02 pm

Rolf F wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote::lol:

Image


Not really worth that degree of hilarity smiley face simply because you can just substitute any face in there and for all anyone knows it might already be a substitution. Do find insulting the Corbster funny but try to do so via images that are actually witty.

SC did better than me. I thought it was "Take me summer house Jezza ash lane" which makes no sense to me at all.

Some might take that (at least partially) as a subtle defence of Jezza Rolf.

If you don't get it, never mind...
[Edit: here's the answer :) ]
https://youtu.be/1vrEljMfXYo
Last edited by Stevo 666 on Mon Sep 09, 2019 18:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:03 pm

Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:08 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

Take your point although I thought you were coming at it from the point of view of your sector, as in your post above you referred specifically to 'City bonuses'.

Agree that a base pay Euro is worth more than a bonus Euro - the former is pensionable for a start.

The multiple of salary point is something I may have to look at among other things as part of the planning I mentioned recently. The other fun one is the Labour idea of giving 10% of the equity of certain companies to 'the workers'.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:11 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

Take your point although I thought you were coming at it from the point of view of your sector, as in your post above you referred specifically to 'City bonuses'.

Agree that a base pay Euro is worth more than a bonus Euro - the former is pensionable for a start.

The multiple of salary point is something I may have to look at among other things as part of the planning I mentioned recently. The other fun one is the Labour idea of giving 10% of the equity of certain companies to 'the workers'.

I take less issue with the final proposal; what's your criticism of it?

And to be clear, when I mean the City I guess I mean all of FS, not just banking.

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:25 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

Take your point although I thought you were coming at it from the point of view of your sector, as in your post above you referred specifically to 'City bonuses'.

Agree that a base pay Euro is worth more than a bonus Euro - the former is pensionable for a start.

The multiple of salary point is something I may have to look at among other things as part of the planning I mentioned recently. The other fun one is the Labour idea of giving 10% of the equity of certain companies to 'the workers'.

I take less issue with the final proposal; what's your criticism of it?

And to be clear, when I mean the City I guess I mean all of FS, not just banking.

For starters:
- Giving equity to employees should be a matter for companies, not the government.
- Likely unenforceable on overseas owned Groups, partnerships etc. Could be tricky for small private companies and those where the shareholding/balance of control is critical. So inherently unfair for UK listed companies and even Labour privately recognise there is major execution risk involved.
- Probably avoidable for many and likely to drive dysfunctional behaviour such as de-listing or putting an overseas parent company in place etc.
- Unlikely to make workers better off as there can be compensating adjustments elsewhere.
- It's a tax in disguise as any dividends over a certain threshold goes to the government.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 09, 2019 12:29 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

Take your point although I thought you were coming at it from the point of view of your sector, as in your post above you referred specifically to 'City bonuses'.

Agree that a base pay Euro is worth more than a bonus Euro - the former is pensionable for a start.

The multiple of salary point is something I may have to look at among other things as part of the planning I mentioned recently. The other fun one is the Labour idea of giving 10% of the equity of certain companies to 'the workers'.

I take less issue with the final proposal; what's your criticism of it?

And to be clear, when I mean the City I guess I mean all of FS, not just banking.

For starters:
- Giving equity to employees should be a matter for companies, not the government.
- Likely unenforceable on overseas owned Groups, partnerships etc. Could be tricky for small private companies and those where the shareholding/balance of control is critical. So inherently unfair for UK listed companies and even Labour privately recognise there is major execution risk involved.
- Probably avoidable for many and likely to drive dysfunctional behaviour such as de-listing or putting an overseas parent company in place etc.
- Unlikely to make workers better off as there can be compensating adjustments elsewhere.
- It's a tax in disguise as any dividends over a certain threshold goes to the government.


OK so point 1) - meh.
point 2) is that not a question of how well the law is constructed?
point 3) yes could be trickier for smaller companies but again, is its effectiveness not in how it's drafted rather than the principle itself?
point 4) again, depends on execution but yes I see your point
point 5) I don't get this; someone somewhere is paying the dividend. Surely spreading it out over the workforce merely reduces the tax bill means less dividend is hitting the threshold?

I think having some kind of representation from the workers on how firms are run is in principle, a good thing. I also see no issue with workers being able to have a say in how the profits of the firm are distributed.

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 16:39 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Sure, though the suggestion was also to limit pay as multiplies of certain salaries within the firm too.

And it's not just banks Stevo.

The rules around bonuses as a max multiple of the base have definitely put a dampener on pay on the continent. Not massive, but material.

After all, base salary euros are worth more than bonus euros.

Take your point although I thought you were coming at it from the point of view of your sector, as in your post above you referred specifically to 'City bonuses'.

Agree that a base pay Euro is worth more than a bonus Euro - the former is pensionable for a start.

The multiple of salary point is something I may have to look at among other things as part of the planning I mentioned recently. The other fun one is the Labour idea of giving 10% of the equity of certain companies to 'the workers'.

I take less issue with the final proposal; what's your criticism of it?

And to be clear, when I mean the City I guess I mean all of FS, not just banking.

For starters:
- Giving equity to employees should be a matter for companies, not the government.
- Likely unenforceable on overseas owned Groups, partnerships etc. Could be tricky for small private companies and those where the shareholding/balance of control is critical. So inherently unfair for UK listed companies and even Labour privately recognise there is major execution risk involved.
- Probably avoidable for many and likely to drive dysfunctional behaviour such as de-listing or putting an overseas parent company in place etc.
- Unlikely to make workers better off as there can be compensating adjustments elsewhere.
- It's a tax in disguise as any dividends over a certain threshold goes to the government.


OK so point 1) - meh. Point of principle as far as I am concerned - none of the governments business for outside of the public sector.
point 2) is that not a question of how well the law is constructed? They can construct the law as well as they like but how do you think they will enforce this on a company not subject to UK law? If for example the law says that a US company has to give away 10% of its shares in itself - no chance. Similarly, if they ask the same US company to give away 10% of shares in its UK subsidiary - no chance there either.
point 3) yes could be trickier for smaller companies but again, is its effectiveness not in how it's drafted rather than the principle itself? How well it is drafted could determine how small companies deal with it. However larger companies could well take the sort of actions I mentioned above to put the shareholder outside of UK law.
point 4) again, depends on execution but yes I see your point
point 5) I don't get this; someone somewhere is paying the dividend. Surely spreading it out over the workforce merely reduces the tax bill means less dividend is hitting the threshold? No - the way it is drafted means the workforce take a certain amount and presumably get taxed on it as individuals pay tax on dividends. The entire amount over a threshold per employee goes to the govt as I read. A new tax in disguise.

I think having some kind of representation from the workers on how firms are run is in principle, a good thing. I also see no issue with workers being able to have a say in how the profits of the firm are distributed. Having dealt with France for many years and the issues with worker representation and compulsory profit sharing, it is not a good thing in practice overall - IMO.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Mon Sep 09, 2019 21:04 pm

Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Mon Sep 09, 2019 21:13 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

That is in spite of, rather than because of. Try managing a French business and you would understand the point. We would have invested more than we currently done have in France if it was not for the issues we face on 'workers representation' etc.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Tue Sep 10, 2019 05:45 am

Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

That is in spite of, rather than because of. Try managing a French business and you would understand the point. We would have invested more than we currently done have in France if it was not for the issues we face on 'workers representation' etc.


There is a convincing argument that the slow down in productivity since the ‘80s is partly a result of the lack of labour leverage.

There’s a balance and if you look at things like the ratio of top pay vs bottom pay or average pay, it’s not too difficult to conclude the balance has shifted too far.

*Everything* is skewed in favour of the top end and long term that’s not great.

The traction that labour get with these does point to a recognition that that balance isn’t there.

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 17:02 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

That is in spite of, rather than because of. Try managing a French business and you would understand the point. We would have invested more than we currently done have in France if it was not for the issues we face on 'workers representation' etc.


There is a convincing argument that the slow down in productivity since the ‘80s is partly a result of the lack of labour leverage.

There’s a balance and if you look at things like the ratio of top pay vs bottom pay or average pay, it’s not too difficult to conclude the balance has shifted too far.

*Everything* is skewed in favour of the top end and long term that’s not great.

The traction that labour get with these does point to a recognition that that balance isn’t there.

Evidence please?

There are two points at play here:-
1. Shares as a way of giving the workers more reward - you conceded above that was likely not to be the case as companies will probably reduce other parts of the compensation package.
2. Worker representation on running a company. These are the same workers who as an electorate you think are generally not capable of making informed decisions on the EU, so not sure how much value they will add to running a complex multinational enterprise?
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Tue Sep 10, 2019 18:22 pm

Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

That is in spite of, rather than because of. Try managing a French business and you would understand the point. We would have invested more than we currently done have in France if it was not for the issues we face on 'workers representation' etc.


There is a convincing argument that the slow down in productivity since the ‘80s is partly a result of the lack of labour leverage.

There’s a balance and if you look at things like the ratio of top pay vs bottom pay or average pay, it’s not too difficult to conclude the balance has shifted too far.

*Everything* is skewed in favour of the top end and long term that’s not great.

The traction that labour get with these does point to a recognition that that balance isn’t there.

Evidence please?

There are two points at play here:-
1. Shares as a way of giving the workers more reward - you conceded above that was likely not to be the case as companies will probably reduce other parts of the compensation package.
2. Worker representation on running a company. These are the same workers who as an electorate you think are generally not capable of making informed decisions on the EU, so not sure how much value they will add to running a complex multinational enterprise?


I’m not interested in the bonus chat as we agree.

Re worker representation; the people who work at a firm are running it day to day, wouldn’t you say?

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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Stevo 666 » Tue Sep 10, 2019 20:47 pm

Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:
Stevo 666 wrote:
Rick Chasey wrote:Given the French earn more per hour worked I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss.

Existentially, what is the point of work, right?

That is in spite of, rather than because of. Try managing a French business and you would understand the point. We would have invested more than we currently done have in France if it was not for the issues we face on 'workers representation' etc.


There is a convincing argument that the slow down in productivity since the ‘80s is partly a result of the lack of labour leverage.

There’s a balance and if you look at things like the ratio of top pay vs bottom pay or average pay, it’s not too difficult to conclude the balance has shifted too far.

*Everything* is skewed in favour of the top end and long term that’s not great.

The traction that labour get with these does point to a recognition that that balance isn’t there.

Evidence please?

There are two points at play here:-
1. Shares as a way of giving the workers more reward - you conceded above that was likely not to be the case as companies will probably reduce other parts of the compensation package.
2. Worker representation on running a company. These are the same workers who as an electorate you think are generally not capable of making informed decisions on the EU, so not sure how much value they will add to running a complex multinational enterprise?


I’m not interested in the bonus chat as we agree.

Re worker representation; the people who work at a firm are running it day to day, wouldn’t you say?

Clearly there are workers of different abilities...the average one will not add much.

The average worker isnt really interested in the running of the company. In our French op, the interest only extends as far as considering whether what is being proposed will make the better off or not. Apart from the odd union/leftie type with an axe to grind.
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Re: Join the Labour Party and save your country!

Postby Rick Chasey » Wed Sep 11, 2019 07:17 am

Yeah I see absolutely no reason for forcing firms to come to a balance between paying their staff and profits, that's where I'm coming from.

I absolutely see the need to incentivise investors to part with their cash and I see no benefit from labour having so much power that businesses are run into the ground.

If you look at the breakdown of where earnings have increased in the UK, it's almost exclusively for capital owners. Surely you want a balance between that and productivity? The argument I find convincing goes that as labour powers have been eroded and the threat of communism disappeared, there was no incentive for businesses to reward labour in the same way, and so all gains have been passed off to investors at the expense of labour.

What's quite funny is when you look at firms where the talent is unusually important, this balance is more quickly struck. A great example are investment banks, who continue to pay their staff incredibly well (as the limited supply of people able and willing to work in them is limited), despite weak performance for their shareholders. It absolutely can be done. But the labour in those firms is much more organised and has much more power; "don't pay me, I'll leave".


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